Also … how perceptive IS Amanda? Smart enough to figure out that if Andi tells her that she dated Selkie’s dad “a long time ago,” is there a good chance Perceptive Daughter will figure out who her father is all on her own?
Feeling like having a bit of a meltdown myself now. MONDAY IS SO FAR AWAAAAAAY! WAH!
She’s obviously actively – albeit subconsciously – suppressing the maths. Would be too much to learn at this point that “fish-faces” dad is her biological father.
Yeah, this is bothering me, too. Andi is just letting all the nasty talk and insults go, instead of doing anything about it. This is her daughter now, and she needs to be a proper mother. She’s got a harder job than most, granted, but that doesn’t excuse a complete lack of effort.
I can’t help but think Amanda’s life would be improved so much if she had just a teensy bit of direction in not calling people names and acting a bit more pleasantly. Andi is the one who should be supplying that, but she’s choosing to pretend it isn’t an issue at all.
To be fair, between this, the walkout incident, and the “Grow up” comment against her excuses I don’t think she’s ready to be a mother yet. I think Dave is trying to illustrate that fact.
Okay, while I agree that the name-calling should have been addressed earlier, I have to say—as a parent—this is not a situation I’d chose to start correcting that behavior. Emotions are pretty tense for both of them at the moment, and Amanda’s name-calling isn’t hurting Selkie at that moment (assuming Selkie is out of earshot). On top of that, Amanda is about to put 2 and 2 together—and that is going to lead to a lot of emotion. Any correction will be lost on her and could possibly escalate things.
Sai Fen was cool when we first met her, but throughout this arc she’s been, as you said, delightful. I didn’t know how much I needed more Sai Fen in this comic until now!
Gunnerkrigg Court is also exploring issues of abandonment, neglect, and abuse. And these two strips have become my favorites. (Took some doing to edge out Girl Genius.) With both, I’m like a little kid in the back seat of the car: “Has he updated yet?! Has he updated yet?! Has he updated yet?!”
I find it both amusing and a bit horrifying that these issues are so prevalent that they’ve made it into more than two of the webcomics I follow. Since I’m working on a project related to these issues, it’s particularly useful.
Also useful in bringing a bit of levity to the research, because the data I’m amassing is not the most cheerful data in the world.
I could use more feedback, but I don’t know how to get from this forum to a private email/chat/whatever without publishing my email address right here. Which isn’t really a good idea.
There’ve actually been several commentators on this forum where I’ve gone “Man, I really wish I could talk with them privately!” So many details that could enrich my story and make the characters more believable… not to mention me, as a writer, being more sensitive about how to approach some of the touchier issues at stake.
Maybe you could type out the email address in a way that won’t get grabbed by bots? Like “email AT website DOT com”?
Or you could create a Steam account and give out that username for it? It’s mostly a gaming platform but you could use it as a free chat hub in a pinch. Friend list each other, set up times to chat, etc. Ditto for Skype.
It’s not spambots I’m so worried about, although I do consider them worth being careful about.
But, heck, it’s not like my gmail would be hard to guess. So let’s hope all the people reading this forum, and this comment specifically, are not the type to do bad things with personal data.
Because I am Kilyle practically everywhere, and any time you see Kilyle online, it’s 97% likely to be me. I made a decision, back when I joined the net, to have a simple handle that didn’t require weird contortions or a string of numbers (“Oh, you wanted LukeSkywalker185? I’m LukeSkywalker187”), and after some hunting it seemed that Kilyle was a reference obscure enough to be useful to me.
So if you care to contact me, just do so. And we can talk 🙂
Might try that, though I’m on NaNoWriMo myself. Sporadically. I’m actively seeking to avoid time sinks lately (like Facebook), and that includes joining new sites that have a ton of info to browse through, seeing as I’m an information junkie.
But it’s nice to have some recommendations for other writers’ sites that might hit at info I can’t get from NNWM.
Looks like this might indeed have some useful info. Too bad it’s recent — I do like a good archive binge. (Though, see “information junkie” above: Maybe it’s a good thing she doesn’t have many posts yet.)
I’m gonna hold my breath until she does!!
Wait! What am I doing? That is “sonotgonnahappen”. I think Andi is still in her head talking to Todd, not really present beside her daughter.
HEY! I just hope that Dave is Not going to do something horrible, like — in the last frame, the surprise on Andi’s face isn’t Dave having Everyone converge, just bump into each other as they are leaving, just as Amanda (Greek chorus) blurts out, (and I quote) “Fish-Face’s Dad is your Boyfriend?!?!?!” (Which sounds like Chloris Leachman in my head; “Go ahead; say it! He vas my boyfriend!)
I get people opining that they hate Andi, but the comments that state she’s never going to change/mature/develop/be redeemed are especially irksome. Because, first of all, you’re selling Dave’s writing short, and second of all, you’re forgetting the numerous times he’s done it before (Heather, Prof Trunchbull, Truck).
I’m waiting for the “AMANDA MARIE, ENOUGH!” and the re-emergence of Robot Amanda which Andi, naturally, will be too oblivious to notice.
It ain’t gon’ take long for Amanda to figure out that Andi only took her back to try to get Todd back. Doesn’t even matter if that’s the whole truth or not. Amanda will realize this – and that fact will fuck up her poor little head more than all her previous abuse.
I look forward to the day when Andi admits defeat, dumps Amanda on Todd’s doorstep, and the kid can finally have a loving home with a loving parent (and an annoying sister, but they’ll get past that).
What gives you the idea that this is the only reason Andi took Amanda back?
I think Dave made it clear enough in the comic that the motivation is to set right what went wrong due to her being bullied into giving Amanda up and then lying to Todd about it. With hindsight, it is even becoming clear that, back when Andi visited Todd on the day of the shirt incident, she was working up the courage to tell Todd about Amanda when the school called Todd.
Yes, Andi is incredibly immature. Yes, she is (so far) still in denial about the irreparable damage she caused. But she is not a soulless monster.
>What gives you the idea that this is the only reason Andi took Amanda back?
Doesn’t matter if it is or not. I GUARANTEE YOU that after that shameful display at the aquarium, Amanda’s gonna put two and two together and come to that conclusion for herself – justified or otherwise.
I hated Amanda at the beginning, reminiscent as she is of all my childhood bullies – but now I feel deeply sorry for her. When will she stop being (or having to feel like) a pawn, and actually get to be someone’s daughter?
…well, okay, granted, I can’t guarantee ANYTHING because I’m not the one writing this story. But were this real life? Amanda would pick up on that with a quickness. Kids are hella smart, and incredibly good at figuring out inconvenient and uncomfortable truths. She’s SEEN Andi try to use her presence to pick up Todd. She WILL work out the implications.
Maybe that may have been her *INITIAL* motive, but I think the presence of the arc where Andi actually goes to the orphanage, and cries over Amanda’s file, and has the nose-holding trick when Amanda gets dizzy from spinning… says to me that it has become otherwise, and that Andi really does want to make things better for Amanda, childish though Andi may be.
Of course, I could be wrong, but hey, your theory might too. We’ll never really know until Dave reveals.
If you re-read the scene of Andi visiting her mom (strip 586 onward), you´ll see it was indeed her initial motive, but even back then it had become more than that.
Say, Dave, I don’t know how much thought you put into this, but this page is an excellent example of the use of camera space (I forget the term).
The general principle is that there’s this 180-degree line you’re not supposed to cross, so you don’t swap two characters, so the blocking (where characters are in the scene) doesn’t get confusing. You’ve moved naturally from one camera angle to another and in most cases here it’s both clear and reasonable:
1 to 2: PoV to a side shot, and the only thing confusing (which I had to look twice for) is how you switch from one Sarnothi to the other.
2 to 3: Good swing around, and characters stay on the same side so it’s easy to follow.
3 to 4: The most questionable choice, as the characters are now opposite their previous panel positions. I think it’s a decent choice because you get to see Todd’s expression in conveying the information before you see Selkie’s in reacting to it.
5 to 6: Slight back to full front, and it’s easy to read. It seems like Amanda moved to the side compared to her previous position, but I figure it’s a nice cheat to keep things clear and dramatic.
You’ve got the term right, it’s the 180 Degree Rule (where you don’t cross an imaginary line with the camera).
And thank you for noticing that! I try to be considerate of the 180 Degree Rule as much as I can, but sometimes panel composition requires breaking it. Comics have their own addendum to the 180 Degree Rule, where you don’t want the tails of the word balloons to cross (makes it tricky to tell at a glance who is saying what), and I’ve had several instances where adhering to the 180 Degree Rule means having characters in the wrong order for dialogue sequence (Selkie speaks first but is on Panel Right, for example). Sometimes I’m able to rotate the “camera” to shift the 180 Degree boundary, other times I just have to eat it and jump cut across the boundary due to available page space.
If I have to choose between adhering strictly to the 180 Degree rule or having characters on panel in a good order for dialogue flow, I tend to favor dialogue flow.
And the update happened while I posted that last comment on Wednesday’s page.
Well, this is better than what I thought it might be… but both girls are about to have a meltdown.
Also … how perceptive IS Amanda? Smart enough to figure out that if Andi tells her that she dated Selkie’s dad “a long time ago,” is there a good chance Perceptive Daughter will figure out who her father is all on her own?
Feeling like having a bit of a meltdown myself now. MONDAY IS SO FAR AWAAAAAAY! WAH!
😉 Good work, Dave!
She’s obviously actively – albeit subconsciously – suppressing the maths. Would be too much to learn at this point that “fish-faces” dad is her biological father.
And, of course, the fact that her own father overlooked her in favor of “fish-face”.
Dave on transcript comments: HAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!
Don’t know if Selkie will make the connection, but Amanda HAS to follow that thought trail to the next level.
I think Selkie already HAS made the connection. Amanda looks outraged. Selkie just looks really really sad.
Amanda is also not subtle.
Like mother, like daughter…
Andi, for the love of God correct your damn kid over the name calling!
Yeah, this is bothering me, too. Andi is just letting all the nasty talk and insults go, instead of doing anything about it. This is her daughter now, and she needs to be a proper mother. She’s got a harder job than most, granted, but that doesn’t excuse a complete lack of effort.
I can’t help but think Amanda’s life would be improved so much if she had just a teensy bit of direction in not calling people names and acting a bit more pleasantly. Andi is the one who should be supplying that, but she’s choosing to pretend it isn’t an issue at all.
To be fair, between this, the walkout incident, and the “Grow up” comment against her excuses I don’t think she’s ready to be a mother yet. I think Dave is trying to illustrate that fact.
I THINK she has more immediate problems to think of right now. Although, yeah, that is integral to projected peace in this family.
I’ll just be over here, with popcorn *throws kernel into mouth*
Mind if I join you?
I’LL BRING THE BUTTER AND SALT
Okay, while I agree that the name-calling should have been addressed earlier, I have to say—as a parent—this is not a situation I’d chose to start correcting that behavior. Emotions are pretty tense for both of them at the moment, and Amanda’s name-calling isn’t hurting Selkie at that moment (assuming Selkie is out of earshot). On top of that, Amanda is about to put 2 and 2 together—and that is going to lead to a lot of emotion. Any correction will be lost on her and could possibly escalate things.
Wow, this is going a touch smoother than the blowtorches and all out warfare I expected.
Ironically, I have Gotye – “Someone That I Used to Know” playing in the background.
Andi if you don’t have a talk to your daughter about her status oriented attitude towards adoption or other people, then I will call you a bad parent.
Perhaps at a less emotionally-charged time when Amanda is more receptive to the lesson… But agreed.
BAHAHAHAHA “She was not subtle”.
Have I mentioned how much I love Sai Fen? She is delightful.
Sai Fen was cool when we first met her, but throughout this arc she’s been, as you said, delightful. I didn’t know how much I needed more Sai Fen in this comic until now!
She really is just the best, full stop.
Gunnerkrigg Court is also exploring issues of abandonment, neglect, and abuse. And these two strips have become my favorites. (Took some doing to edge out Girl Genius.) With both, I’m like a little kid in the back seat of the car: “Has he updated yet?! Has he updated yet?! Has he updated yet?!”
I find it both amusing and a bit horrifying that these issues are so prevalent that they’ve made it into more than two of the webcomics I follow. Since I’m working on a project related to these issues, it’s particularly useful.
Also useful in bringing a bit of levity to the research, because the data I’m amassing is not the most cheerful data in the world.
I am *extremely* interested in your project, she hinted subtly. For reasons of my own.
I could use more feedback, but I don’t know how to get from this forum to a private email/chat/whatever without publishing my email address right here. Which isn’t really a good idea.
There’ve actually been several commentators on this forum where I’ve gone “Man, I really wish I could talk with them privately!” So many details that could enrich my story and make the characters more believable… not to mention me, as a writer, being more sensitive about how to approach some of the touchier issues at stake.
There ARE other free email services that are anonymous, I mean; other than yahoo & Gmail.
Maybe you could type out the email address in a way that won’t get grabbed by bots? Like “email AT website DOT com”?
Or you could create a Steam account and give out that username for it? It’s mostly a gaming platform but you could use it as a free chat hub in a pinch. Friend list each other, set up times to chat, etc. Ditto for Skype.
Fyi, Dave, the spambots learned how to decipher the “email AT website DOT com” format sometime in the 90s.
So I need to update my floppy drives and get a second phone line for the modem to get up to speed? 😉
Try putting it in an image.
It’s not spambots I’m so worried about, although I do consider them worth being careful about.
But, heck, it’s not like my gmail would be hard to guess. So let’s hope all the people reading this forum, and this comment specifically, are not the type to do bad things with personal data.
Because I am Kilyle practically everywhere, and any time you see Kilyle online, it’s 97% likely to be me. I made a decision, back when I joined the net, to have a simple handle that didn’t require weird contortions or a string of numbers (“Oh, you wanted LukeSkywalker185? I’m LukeSkywalker187”), and after some hunting it seemed that Kilyle was a reference obscure enough to be useful to me.
So if you care to contact me, just do so. And we can talk 🙂
Funnily enough, that exactly the train of thought that led to “Chaos”.
“Sir Chaos” came later when a place already had a “Chaos” when I got there.
Try http://www.fmwriters.com.
Very friendly place, lots of writers around, either in the forum or in chat.
I call myself “Chaos” there, without the “Sir”.
Might try that, though I’m on NaNoWriMo myself. Sporadically. I’m actively seeking to avoid time sinks lately (like Facebook), and that includes joining new sites that have a ton of info to browse through, seeing as I’m an information junkie.
But it’s nice to have some recommendations for other writers’ sites that might hit at info I can’t get from NNWM.
I found a blog you might be interested in the other day. Hasn’t been updated in awhile, but you could try messaging her?
search blogspot for Sai Unfiltered.
Looks like this might indeed have some useful info. Too bad it’s recent — I do like a good archive binge. (Though, see “information junkie” above: Maybe it’s a good thing she doesn’t have many posts yet.)
Selkie seems to be taking it significantly better than Amanda, surprising absolutely no one.
I certainly hope Andi’s next line of dialog is, “Do NOT say Fish-Face, ever again for the rest of your life.”
I’m gonna hold my breath until she does!!
Wait! What am I doing? That is “sonotgonnahappen”. I think Andi is still in her head talking to Todd, not really present beside her daughter.
HEY! I just hope that Dave is Not going to do something horrible, like — in the last frame, the surprise on Andi’s face isn’t Dave having Everyone converge, just bump into each other as they are leaving, just as Amanda (Greek chorus) blurts out, (and I quote) “Fish-Face’s Dad is your Boyfriend?!?!?!” (Which sounds like Chloris Leachman in my head; “Go ahead; say it! He vas my boyfriend!)
Nor will she ever be. Andi,your a jidiot. -___-
I get people opining that they hate Andi, but the comments that state she’s never going to change/mature/develop/be redeemed are especially irksome. Because, first of all, you’re selling Dave’s writing short, and second of all, you’re forgetting the numerous times he’s done it before (Heather, Prof Trunchbull, Truck).
Truck never gave someone a fake baby ashes or anything remotely that disgustingly disturbing.
If the two of them think it’s difficult now, wait till they get a little more information…
I’m waiting for the “AMANDA MARIE, ENOUGH!” and the re-emergence of Robot Amanda which Andi, naturally, will be too oblivious to notice.
It ain’t gon’ take long for Amanda to figure out that Andi only took her back to try to get Todd back. Doesn’t even matter if that’s the whole truth or not. Amanda will realize this – and that fact will fuck up her poor little head more than all her previous abuse.
I look forward to the day when Andi admits defeat, dumps Amanda on Todd’s doorstep, and the kid can finally have a loving home with a loving parent (and an annoying sister, but they’ll get past that).
What gives you the idea that this is the only reason Andi took Amanda back?
I think Dave made it clear enough in the comic that the motivation is to set right what went wrong due to her being bullied into giving Amanda up and then lying to Todd about it. With hindsight, it is even becoming clear that, back when Andi visited Todd on the day of the shirt incident, she was working up the courage to tell Todd about Amanda when the school called Todd.
Yes, Andi is incredibly immature. Yes, she is (so far) still in denial about the irreparable damage she caused. But she is not a soulless monster.
>What gives you the idea that this is the only reason Andi took Amanda back?
Doesn’t matter if it is or not. I GUARANTEE YOU that after that shameful display at the aquarium, Amanda’s gonna put two and two together and come to that conclusion for herself – justified or otherwise.
I hated Amanda at the beginning, reminiscent as she is of all my childhood bullies – but now I feel deeply sorry for her. When will she stop being (or having to feel like) a pawn, and actually get to be someone’s daughter?
…well, okay, granted, I can’t guarantee ANYTHING because I’m not the one writing this story. But were this real life? Amanda would pick up on that with a quickness. Kids are hella smart, and incredibly good at figuring out inconvenient and uncomfortable truths. She’s SEEN Andi try to use her presence to pick up Todd. She WILL work out the implications.
Maybe that may have been her *INITIAL* motive, but I think the presence of the arc where Andi actually goes to the orphanage, and cries over Amanda’s file, and has the nose-holding trick when Amanda gets dizzy from spinning… says to me that it has become otherwise, and that Andi really does want to make things better for Amanda, childish though Andi may be.
Of course, I could be wrong, but hey, your theory might too. We’ll never really know until Dave reveals.
If you re-read the scene of Andi visiting her mom (strip 586 onward), you´ll see it was indeed her initial motive, but even back then it had become more than that.
and this isn’t even the shit hitting the fan, this is more like the fart that comes before the shit
Say, Dave, I don’t know how much thought you put into this, but this page is an excellent example of the use of camera space (I forget the term).
The general principle is that there’s this 180-degree line you’re not supposed to cross, so you don’t swap two characters, so the blocking (where characters are in the scene) doesn’t get confusing. You’ve moved naturally from one camera angle to another and in most cases here it’s both clear and reasonable:
1 to 2: PoV to a side shot, and the only thing confusing (which I had to look twice for) is how you switch from one Sarnothi to the other.
2 to 3: Good swing around, and characters stay on the same side so it’s easy to follow.
3 to 4: The most questionable choice, as the characters are now opposite their previous panel positions. I think it’s a decent choice because you get to see Todd’s expression in conveying the information before you see Selkie’s in reacting to it.
5 to 6: Slight back to full front, and it’s easy to read. It seems like Amanda moved to the side compared to her previous position, but I figure it’s a nice cheat to keep things clear and dramatic.
So all in all, very nice page.
You’ve got the term right, it’s the 180 Degree Rule (where you don’t cross an imaginary line with the camera).
And thank you for noticing that! I try to be considerate of the 180 Degree Rule as much as I can, but sometimes panel composition requires breaking it. Comics have their own addendum to the 180 Degree Rule, where you don’t want the tails of the word balloons to cross (makes it tricky to tell at a glance who is saying what), and I’ve had several instances where adhering to the 180 Degree Rule means having characters in the wrong order for dialogue sequence (Selkie speaks first but is on Panel Right, for example). Sometimes I’m able to rotate the “camera” to shift the 180 Degree boundary, other times I just have to eat it and jump cut across the boundary due to available page space.
If I have to choose between adhering strictly to the 180 Degree rule or having characters on panel in a good order for dialogue flow, I tend to favor dialogue flow.
Good developments Dave! And I love your transcript note!
It is quite effective.
Or, in Andi’s shorter version: “Eep….” ;-}}