A laying down of law
In the initial draft of this arc Amanda was putting up the sweet and innocent act to the adults faces while being a royal shit to Selkie in secret. I chose not to pursue that because I don't want to create a narrative where Amanda is portrayed as some master manipulator or prescient mastermind. She's not above using the batted-eyelashes don't get me wrong, but I feel a route like that leans a bit too one-dimensional.
Sounds like the original Parent Trap: “Either you girls will learn to get along with one another or you’ll punish yourselves far better then I ever could.”
A+ parenting on both Todd and Andy’s parts.
It’s good call to not go with the innocent batting eyelashes look with Amanda. It would feel false at the moment and would annoy Selkie that she used that trick because She probable knows of it.
Also, I’m so glad that Andi is also acting like a parent as well.
It’s improvement .
I like how equilaterally that worked out. I also liked the message “this is the way it is and you have to learn to live with it and you will behave like civilized creatures. Kids need boundaries to be boldly delineated. It makes them feel safe.
I messed up my punctuation there. There should be a quote closing the bit about civilized creatures.
Selkie acknowledges she was out of line and is actually contrite.
Amanda, on the other hand, seems wholly unrepentant and just goes along with what she’s being unreasonably ordered to do and doesn’t sound like she has any intention of obeying it for a second longer than she has to.
Thinking that myownself. I see a big difference between “I’m sorry” and “FINE!”.
I do think that Todd should have made this point, though – “YOU’RE my daughter, and YOU’RE my daughter, which means YOU TWO are sisters. Accept it. Get over it.”
I’m thinking Grandpa Theo will be the one to point this out to them. He’s the one that started this little “experiment” after all.
I’m wondering if Theo’s point should be, “Y’re Sisters, that means when you hurt each other, you hurt Todd as well.” THAT might get their attention, cause when Todd is unhappy, NObody gets Salmon, and hardly be lucky enough to even get tuna!! Just my $.02.
That might work if Selkie were the instigator, and most of the time she isn’t.
When Dad was in a good mood we got steak, when Mom was in a good mood we got Salmon, or Swordfish!!!! Once she was so happy we got Lobster! … Although if Todd and Co. are living in Chicago, then maybe Amanda wouldn’t be motivated by seafood. Maybe it’s just a coastal thing….?
I just wanted to commend you on the differing body positions that you’ve had the two girls in for the last few comics in this battle. It’s been really clear from that, that they are taking very perspectives on the same battle. Amanda is angry and hateful towards Selkie and that has remained clear the whole time, even when they started the battle. Selkie is far more open to giving Amanda a chance. You can tell this just from the way they hold their hands in the previous comic. Well done!
Dave’s use of posture and gesture has always been really good.
Use of tangential lines, not so much. Amanda’s trying to eat that tiny sofa arm (nom nom).
While I compliment Andi on calling Amanda out on going back on her word for the name calling and that she’s sticking to her guns about enforcing it, I find her… semi-sitting position to be an awkward choice. She should be standing with Todd in order to further solidify that she agrees with him and establish her place in this.
Maybe it’s because she thinks Todd would get angry (He very well might.) if she stands next to him and asserts her parental rights to reprimand her daughter along with him, but I don’t think she should let his feelings towards her stop her from correcting Amanda to the fullest extent.
Actually, it’s good she’s low like that. She’s making better direct eye-contact while talking with Amanda while being on her knees like that versus talking down to her from a standing position. I’ve done this when talking to my own kid about something serious (she’s only 6), and she always listens better than when I’m talking at a standing position. I don’t lower myself talking with 8 year olds, but my friends’ kids are very tall, and I’m quite petite so we usually make eye-contact pretty easily.
Also with a child like Amanda, it’s *better* to use a less authoritative posture. Kids like that need to learn respect based on logic and (eventually) kindness—not authority. And Andi was even told to take a gentle approach with Amanda. However, by her facial expression, I’m sure her tone is making it pretty clear that Amanda’s behavior is not appropriate or appreciated.
Also, keep in mind that if she stood next to Todd it could easily come across as “ganging up” to Amanda (my parents were abusive and used this approach on me way too much). With a touchy kid, that is not a good move. They easily interpret things as attacks.
With Todd standing, he is in the dominant “I WILL be obeyed” position. Very “alpha”. Andi’s sitting down, however, puts her at eye-level, in the “we can discuss this as reasonable people” position. I’ve seen both parenting methods used effectively. You have to learn which works best for you.
Cut her some slack. She’s new at this.
One of the problems with laying down the Law (and indeed with laws in general) is that, human nature being what it is, people will try to push boundaries whenever possible. (It’s the reason that our Court system exists: to more clearly delineate those boundaries by interpreting both the letter and spirit of the law.) Unfortunately, there are those who will try to outright manipulate the law (or “Law”, in Amanda’s case) in order to gain an unfair advantage over others. (And it doesn’t help if those who seek that unfair advantage are able to *make* and/or interpret those laws in the first place…) Todd and Andi are going to have to be *VERY* careful to make sure that Amanda doesn’t try to manipulate them to Selkie’s disadvantage.
I read subtext into this; that Andi and Todd, (and grandparents) will have to get along as well.
I see a real difference in the parenting styles. Todd addresses Selkie’s behavior and explains why it is inappropriate. Andi only addresses specific name-calling. Andi’s parenting is much more superficial – she is not holding Amanda to account for aggressive behavior.
Different parenting approaches, but not necessarily wrong ones. What Andi did wasn’t superficial. She pointed out a very behavior she specifically told Amanda was off-limits. She may get to the other things later—and that is actually not just okay—but always advised by good parenting books, because it’s not effective to have a lengthy discussion with your child about their negative behaviors until *everyone* (both the child and parent) is calm.
Also, it’s very important to remember Amanda is a very different kid than Selkie. Remember when Andi was learning about her at the orphanage, and there was an analogy of deactivating a bomb? You do that one wire at a time. If Andi dumped the laundry list of things Amanda just did wrong, Amanda could easily perceive that as an attack—not discipline.
Andi also knows that it’s a rude name (something Selkie has pointed out she hates on MANY MANY OCCASIONS and Amanda should know by now), but doesn’t know that it’s also a species slur, which would probably merit a significant “remember when other kids would make fun of you for being adopted or an orphan? IT’S THAT BAD.” kind of talk. For now what Andi knows is that Selkie hates being called that and so you shouldn’t call her that. Under normal circumstances, that’d be enough, but since these two have serious issues with each other and it is in fact a slur they might still end up needing to have that talk eventually.
Your right, there’s no need for more scolding in front of everybody. I’m going to once again transquote* Lucia Feider’s ‘A Kid’s 12 Demands Of Their Parents’:
“3. Don’t scold me while others are around, if it can be avoided!
I’ll care more about what you tell me, if you talk to me quietly and in private.”
*quote+translate
(btw: I updated some of the translations I posted on page 623)
Your right, there’s no need for more scolding in front of everybody. I’m going to once again transquote* Lucia Feider’s ‘A Kid’s 12 Demands Of Their Parents’:
“3. Don’t scold me while others are around, if it can be avoided!
I’ll care more about what you tell me, if you talk to me quietly and in private.”
*quote+translate
(btw: I updated some of the translations I posted back on page 623)
Also, letting Todd take charge here and discipline both of the girls, is really the best idea. Having two adults yelling at a child is not going to get anywhere, you’re more likely to scare the kid or send mixed messages and confuse it, than actually do anything construcitve. And since Todd has some degree of authority in the eyes of both children, it really should be him taking the talk, which he does. Andi can support him with Amanda, but she has nothing to do with Selkie.
There’s also that tendency of society to put leadership in the father’s hands. Which is one reason why Todd is slipping into it so easily. As you said KatteLars, only one parent should take center stage with the other acting as support. And he has the best position.
Besides, what has Amanda done wrong besides calling Selkie the “F” word? Although Amanda instigated the marker fight, Selkie was a willing participant. Selkie was the one who jumped on Amanda when things got out of hand. The aggressive behavior was Selkie’s, not Amanda’s.
Let’s remember that markers are hard. Amanda’s flurry of marker swipes to the face was not done gently. Even if Selkie’s skin is tougher than human, it probably did hurt. And Amanda wasn’t being at all careful at that point. She was slashing wildly. She could have got an eye. Her behaviour totally counts as aggression.
Because of her natural weaponry, Selkie has to be extra-careful about not losing her temper, so Todd’s rebuke was spot-on. However, Amanda’s not just an injured innocent here; she was the one who turned it from a play-fight to a real one.
Of course, we know why. What triggered the attack was Selkie’s giggle.
To be fair, Selkie hit Amanda VERY close to the eye before Amanda started flailing her marker around.
Also if you look at the thickness of the lines on the girls faces, you can see Selkie’s are much thinner, indicating she was just grazed with the tip of the marker, probably not that hard, because Amanda wasn’t aiming and instead just wildly flailing her arm. I imagine it felt like someone brushing their fingers against her face, whereas Amanda’s like is thick and short, because Selkie WAS aiming and that her hit felt more like a moderately hard poke.
So, Selkie got into a marker fight and somehow should have had an expectation not to be markered?
This is kind of what I mentioned on last strip, Amanda is the one not getting along with Selkie, it’s not mutual, there’s nothing for Selkie to learn. (in regards to her relationship with her sister that is… flipping out is valid but more of a general thing for her)
One could make the case that Selkie needs to forgive Amanda but the later hasn’t actually apologized or made efforts to make up yet.
Did a write up on forgiveness once.
Sometimes other people walk through the rooms of our heart and break things. Mostly it’s accidental, they bump up against fragiles they didn’t realize were there. Sometimes it is deliberate – they throw dishes against the wall in rage. Either way, damage is done.
Forgiveness isn’t about fixing that damage, some trusts once broken can’t be mended.
Forgiveness is about cleaning up the shattered pieces so that you and the other people who walk the halls in your heart don’t get bloody feet stepping on them all the time. It’s nice when the person who broke it helps pick up the mess, but it’s your heart and your responsibility to make it a safe place for the people you love to stay.
You don’t have to clean it up, nobody can make you. But if your heart isn’t safe, we aren’t going to stay no matter who you blame the original mess on.
…
In this context, Selkie does need to forgive Amanda at some point but not for the reasons most people think when they think of forgiveness. It isn’t about patching things up with Amanda, that may not even be possible if Amanda can’t come to terms with why being a bully is bad. This is about Selkie being emotionally mature enough to see the reasons behind why Amanda is the way she is, recognize that it wasn’t about her even tho it was directed at her, let go of the pain and anger Amanda’s poor behavior created, and move on with her life without repeating the same dynamic with different players. She actually can forgive Amanda without an apology, if she’s emotionally mature enough to. Most adults aren’t but we’ve already seen glimmerings of her being that kind of person with the incident with Truck, altho he made it slightly easier since he showed signs of finally figuring out why what he did was wrong.
Now Amanda apologizing is a similar kettle of fish but there are differences. Apologies are NOT for the person you wronged, they are for yourself. They’re there to show you recognize you screwed up, you understand why it was bad, and that you’re going to work on doing better in the future. The reason why they are for yourself is because not apologizing to people you wronged generally means you end up isolated and pushed out of your social group eventually. Amanda’s already treading that ground – she’s hurt Heather because Heather was adopted, she’s hurt Keisha because she wasn’t. But no apology for any of her bad/oblivious behavior is going to mean anything until Amanda herself figures out why she was wrong and needs to apologize.
Until that happens, her apologies are going to mean jacksquat and she’ll lose people who get tired of putting up with her b.s. She shouldn’t be apologizing so Selkie can forgive her, this is for her own emotional health. You can apologize and not have it accepted, then the onus is on the other person as long as you’re honestly attempting to correct your own issues. If your apology is grudging or only because you’re trying to wiggle your way into somebody else’s good graces, it means absolutely nothing.
And no apology means forgiveness needs to be automagically granted. Different people exhibit different levels of emotional maturity and some wounds need more time to heal than others. Forcing that issue is a sure fire sign your apology was insincere to start with.
Apologizing and forgiveness are two separate issues and are NOT dependent on each other. People tie them together but they shouldn’t be.
However, forgiveness cannot begin until the behavior that´s supposed to be forgiven ends. As long as Amanda keeps up the Little Miss Jackass act, there´s no need for Selkie to forgive anything or turn the other cheek or crap like that.
That’s not true. It’s disastrously not true; people who believe this are caught in a trap. They’ve handed over control of their own emotional well-being to someone else.
Forgiveness isn’t for the other person, it’s for you. It doesn’t mean, “You are a good person.” It means, “I am going to clean up my heart. I am going to move on and live my life without this anger.”
But forgiveness is not always needed for you to move on. I was SEVERELY bullied at school in my early teens, to the brink of suicide. Only a couple of years ago, in therapy, I was actually given the okay on NOT having to forgive my bullies. That was a great turning point in me starting to get over that shitty period in my life. Now, if I met those people, I could talk with them as though they were perfect strangers. Earlier I would’ve wanted to strangle them.
+1 to what Hanna said.
Healing is what’s important. Sometimes what you need to heal is the power and agency to not have to forgive those who hurt you. Sometimes what you need is to forgive.
Different people are different. I’m tired of the “this path worked for me, so its the only path and everyone else needs to take it” narrative.
Yeah, “forgiveness” isn’t the only route to peace. Sometimes the route to peace is “y’know what? I’m never going to forgive that.”
Sometimes the route to not being tricked again is to nurture anger and hatred until the other person is dead. Been there, done that. Master manipulators don’t get forgiven, because it’s dangerous to “drop shields” around them.
I have been in this position where I decided if forgiveness was never attempted, forgiveness would never be granted.
Had some bullies that together beat the living crap out of me almost every time I stepped out the door. One time, they even tried shattering my orbital socket. They almost succeeded. I was bleeding out my orbital socket and was temporarily blind in that eye.
I won’t forgive that. I refuse to forgive that. That isn’t all right. That is completely wrong and forgiving that, that would be a sin as far as I’m concerned.
A year back, one of them happened to be working with me and slapped me on the back warmly and said “Remember the good times?” Next thing he knows, two of my coworkers who were also my friends immediately grab me because they knew I was going to tackle him and beat the ever living crap out of him. Instead I shouted “Yeah! I remember the good times! I remember the good times plenty *&^%ing well you piece of *^%*!” The management kept us apart after that. But if you asked anyone else, I was at peace with myself otherwise.
Sometimes forgiveness is impossible with a person and the best they can get is to create a workaround. Acknowledge the sins of the past, learn when you can forgive. Never forget. But find your place of peace. And it’s just as genuine a peace as someone who can forgive. Just with a defensive shield.
You were almost BLINDED?! Jesus Christ, that’s sick.
I don’t think I could forgive that either.
Yeah, I was lucky to get out of that with both eyes intact. I do need glasses, but unrelated to the bullies. Now you get why some of my posts display a bit of venom.
I think some of the most impassioned posts I see on the comic’s subjects come from those who have suffered abuse and mistreatment first-hand.
Your writing hits close to the bone. Not that you should stop, it’s great you can touch so many nerves and make a wildly entertaining comic. Keep doing what you’re doing. Besides, it’s good to let off steam and past baggage like this. Telling people who we will never know or meet helps a lot of people do that.
Commenting on Selkie is sometimes very therapeutic. But all of us sharing our hardships and survivor tales and insights gained from our past experiences just serves to highlight how very true the experiences of being bullied are, and how realistically you write Selkie’s story and the characters in it.
I *really* like this analogy. May I borrow it, if I attribute it to “a comment made by rye on the Friday, October 22, 2015 page of Selkie”?
I wanna borrow it as well, rye, but I’m questioning whether attribution is even needed. General understandings about things, put in this or that imagery, is a thing that ought to be shared around without too much worry about who came up with the specific helpful imagery.
However, if attribution is important to you, I’d be glad to add a “Thanks to rye” line in my project credits. Or something similar, if you have a different idea.
Forgiveness is like a whole bunch of ideas all stuck together so people tend to think if you’ve got one part you better have all the rest. And to me that’s a problem. Like, if you think you can’t let go of the anger in your heart without somehow benefiting the people who hurt you, you walk around with anger and those people keep hurting you every time you think about what they did — even if they don’t think of you anymore, or even if they’re already dead or something. Negative emotions carried inside you for a long time don’t hurt the people who hurt you, they just hurt you. And maybe it’s impossible for you to let go of them, or maybe it’s just too early for you to let go of them, but past a certain point they’re not doing anyone any good.
Um, no, no, no no and hell no.
Selkie doesn’t *need* to forgive Amanda for anything “in order to put this behind her”. She was doing a great job putting it behind her from the first day she woke up in her own room as Todd’s daughter. There isn’t a single interaction with anyone that implies she’d somehow perpetuate the dynamic to anyone else. She’ll be just fine as long as Amanda is not in a position to ever hurt her again.
She’s already been told why Amanda is lashing out at her, and probably even understands why Amanda is lashing out. She might even intellectually feel some empathy for Amanda.
Not of that matters, and none of it is ever going to matter until and unless Amanda stops trying to hurt her every chance she gets.
Thanks Rye. Well said. I’m copying that out as well.
Forgiveness is nothing about saying what they did was OK, nor does it mean going back to any level of trust. It’s about releasing your ‘right’ or ‘demand’ for retribution.
I really like both of the parents’ responses here.
This is, in general, a situation where it’s important to get across the general message of “this must change”, as Todd says at the start. At the same time, it’s also important to not give the impression of favoritism.
If only one of the girls was scolded, the other would have perceived it as strongly unfair. And it WOULD have been strongly unfair, because scolding always carries an element of humiliation, and one of the girls being humiliated in front of another getting off scott free is NOT good.
At the same time, Selkie was being much more reasonable than Amanda, while Amanda requires very gentle and careful approach with her emotional hangups. Both parents needed to come up with something… not direct.
Todd told Selkie that she needs to control herself because she could hurt someone. It’s not about Amanda at all – he doesn’t touch who started it or who was more right or wrong. Selkie is the strong one, and this is her self-control. Amanda could have been a biting puppy, and the same form of scolding would have still been appropriate. He’s not victim-blaming, he’s not making Selkie feel that he’s siding with Amanda in any way. Amanda and everything she did, as long as it wasn’t trying to physically hurt Selkie, is irrelevant to this conversation.
Andi focused on one little thing that they already discussed, that she also knew for a fact was a sticking point for Selkie. On one hand, she’s demonstrating to Selkie that she knows who ‘started first’ here. On the other, she’s not overwhelming Amanda with demands. This is a simple rule. This is something Amanda can actually agree with and commit to, even in her current state. She doesn’t have to forgive, make friends, apologize, she just has to maintain basic decorum. This is a good first step. For now, it’s good enough.
And when you’re of age and out on your own, you can ignore each other.
I detect missing markings* on Todds face in panel 2.
*markers make markings, right?
I remembered that he was only marked on one side. At first, I thought maybe it was just that he was only marked on the other side of his face. So I went back and looked at 696. He was only marked on the side of his face that’s facing us in panel 2 of this one.
Good catch!
Reminds me of when my sister would get into fist fights when we were little. I’m five years older but my mom never put all the blame on me for being older or “knowing better”. She also never put all the blame on my sister who was the more aggressive one and often was the start of the fights. She told us that one day we would have nothing but each other and if we couldn’t find a way to get along then we would be all alone. I don’t know if my sister remembers that advice but I’ve never forgot it and we have a great relationship. Sure we still have little disagreements but we’ve never gone more than a few hours without trying to work it out. 🙂
Now I’m waiting for someone to ask Amanda or Andi why Amanda is so very very hostile and defensive. Sooner or later Todd and his folks will learn about the Sanderson and I do not see that going down well.
Dunno if that will ever come out. Lil’ Mandy is pretty closed up. Not that Selkie isn’t, just that Selkie will share with those she trusts. If she thinks of it. She doesn’t volunteer much.
Really, would it kill them to not force the girls to interact with each other more than absolutely necessary? It’s clear that they don’t care much for each other and will most likely resent being forced together. Selkie also has the right not to have to play nicely with her bully.
That would be the best thing really but since Todd and co will want to keep in touch with Amanda it would be impractical to keep them separate at all times.
Oh, I agree with you mostly, only in an apartment there is very little room “to interact with each other as little as possible.” There is the bathroom, which needs to be common space, the kitchen- again common space, and the living room. The only other places are Selkie’s, and Todd’s, bedrooms. I don’t see evidence of a dining room- else Theo wouldn’t be eating ‘Buffet-Style’. So there is a place for Selkie to go to avoid ‘Mandy, but nowhere for ‘Mandy to go to avoid Selkie; should Selkie decide not stay in her room. They do need to learn to be civil, and not put the digs into interactions. None of the, “Dad? Are we having tunaFISH (face) for dinner, tonight?” comments. That crap has got to stop. No?
Oh, absolutely. I mean Todd’s “You’re going to be seeing a LOT of each other”. That’s bull. Focus on your daughter who needs you and visit the other one at her mother’s place. Family visits can wait.
Dave: Re Michael on facebook:
I have identical firefox setups on my Ubuntu Linux computer and my Win7 computer. Same add-ons, everything. Even using the same USB wi-fi hookup!
Selkie shows up on the Win7 computer, but not on Linux one.
I get the same screen as he does, blank with non-functional buttons.
Thanks for the heads-up. I’m asking in a couple subreddits to see if i can get some fix ideas. I don’t really know off my own head what could be causing it.