Meh, I see Selkie’s point, but that’s also ignoring the fact some people will absolutely always be see you next Tuesdays.
Further, I have and will always believe in personal accountability, blaming your shit behavior on your life or the way you were raised will only get you so far with me. I do not believe being mistreated or having a difficult life is a license to be an asshole.
At the end of the day, your behavior and actions are solely resting on your shoulders.
I think there has to be a balance there. People are absolutely responsible for their actions and attitude, but their choices can be limited by their pasts. Someone who’s never learned how to recognize or name their emotions is going to have an awful hard time choosing to deal with them constructively, simply because they don’t know how. That goes doubly for children, who have severely limited opportunities to learn anything they’re not explicitly taught, while adults have the option of choosing to go to therapy to learn the things they need to. Assuming they can afford it.
I use this sort of metric to figure out how much I should hold a character responsible for not having outgrown the bad behavior or mindset by now.
Like, the character of Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a vampire. Vampires are flat-out declared to have no conscience, no moral compass; this is apparently a factual detail about vampires in that worldbuild. But the characters keep judging him for not using his conscience, which makes no sense to me.
The fact that Spike does the sort of positive things that he manages — defending Buffy’s little sister, protecting their secrets even through torture, being kind to Buffy’s mom, risking his life to help save the world — is ASTOUNDING if you factor in his lack of conscience. And that’s why I see his worst acts as more forgivable than for the human characters (Willow overwriting her lover’s memories to get rid of a fight, Buffy having sex with Dawn’s crush (and then chiding DAWN over a much lesser offense), Xander using a mind-altering spell to try to get one over on Cordelia, etc.).
And it’s funny, because that show also features the best possible example of the “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags [before God]” concept, using Spike:
Spike wants to get on Buffy’s good side, become attractive to her. At one point, a bunch of innocent people get hurt. Spike thinks it’s an excellent time to point out to Buffy that he didn’t take the opportunity to feed on bleeding disaster victims.
He’s fully convinced that this virtue should make him go up points in her sight.
She’s absolutely disgusted that he would think of doing it at all, let alone think that the LACK of doing it is a virtue somehow. That’s baseline human behavior, the “not feeding on bleeding disaster victims” thing, and yet Spike thinks it’s something special and he deserves a cookie.
It’s that disconnect that makes him, at that point, completely unworthy of her attention or interest. It shows how far below humanity the vampires actually are.
But it also shows that Spike should not be judged by the same metric as humans. Humans already *know*, or *should* know, that this is baseline human behavior. Spike has no reason to know that. In fact, his standards are all twisted (because vampires are expected to feed, and not to worry about the state of their victims — why would it matter?).
So if you try to grade him on his behavior, you have to realize that he’s starting at like -3000. With a human adult, you might show favor if they get to, say, a score of 200. With a human child, you might applaud much smaller results — say a score of 50 — because you’re trying to encourage growth, and be aware of their limitations and not expect the same from them as you might expect from an adult (that’s why we don’t harshly critique a child’s scribbles, or all the wrinkles when they make their bed with the sheet on sideways).
With a vampire, you need to go deeper, because a score of -2800 is still the kind of progress that would get a human adult to a score of 200. And if you don’t help the vampire to associate that growth with positive benefits, there’s no way he’s going to see the point in growing out of that deficit. Why bother? nobody’s gonna care.
It does get weird with fictional characters with actual detriments like that. But it could also be applied to, say, a person from a highly racist (or sexist) culture, who has come to a less racist culture and is slowly undoing those racist attitudes. Or a person who was raised by narcissists and developed “fleas,” or behavior that seems normal in a narcissistic household but is highly maladaptive in a normal human environment — you give them more leeway to grow, and treat them more gently while helping them to understand what’s wrong. That sort of thing.
Closer to half to three-fourths a year. Selkie hasn’t even had her first birthday yet with her new family. It’s getting warmer so we’ve hit spring almost.
Well played Selkie. And while she may not be the strongest in powers, she steps into the Echo leadership role naturally. Now if she can learn to channel that for good, lol.
Selkie is not only correct, but looks more and more like her mom every day
Selkie isn’t wrong! lol
Meh, I see Selkie’s point, but that’s also ignoring the fact some people will absolutely always be see you next Tuesdays.
Further, I have and will always believe in personal accountability, blaming your shit behavior on your life or the way you were raised will only get you so far with me. I do not believe being mistreated or having a difficult life is a license to be an asshole.
At the end of the day, your behavior and actions are solely resting on your shoulders.
I think there has to be a balance there. People are absolutely responsible for their actions and attitude, but their choices can be limited by their pasts. Someone who’s never learned how to recognize or name their emotions is going to have an awful hard time choosing to deal with them constructively, simply because they don’t know how. That goes doubly for children, who have severely limited opportunities to learn anything they’re not explicitly taught, while adults have the option of choosing to go to therapy to learn the things they need to. Assuming they can afford it.
I use this sort of metric to figure out how much I should hold a character responsible for not having outgrown the bad behavior or mindset by now.
Like, the character of Spike in Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a vampire. Vampires are flat-out declared to have no conscience, no moral compass; this is apparently a factual detail about vampires in that worldbuild. But the characters keep judging him for not using his conscience, which makes no sense to me.
The fact that Spike does the sort of positive things that he manages — defending Buffy’s little sister, protecting their secrets even through torture, being kind to Buffy’s mom, risking his life to help save the world — is ASTOUNDING if you factor in his lack of conscience. And that’s why I see his worst acts as more forgivable than for the human characters (Willow overwriting her lover’s memories to get rid of a fight, Buffy having sex with Dawn’s crush (and then chiding DAWN over a much lesser offense), Xander using a mind-altering spell to try to get one over on Cordelia, etc.).
And it’s funny, because that show also features the best possible example of the “all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags [before God]” concept, using Spike:
Spike wants to get on Buffy’s good side, become attractive to her. At one point, a bunch of innocent people get hurt. Spike thinks it’s an excellent time to point out to Buffy that he didn’t take the opportunity to feed on bleeding disaster victims.
He’s fully convinced that this virtue should make him go up points in her sight.
She’s absolutely disgusted that he would think of doing it at all, let alone think that the LACK of doing it is a virtue somehow. That’s baseline human behavior, the “not feeding on bleeding disaster victims” thing, and yet Spike thinks it’s something special and he deserves a cookie.
It’s that disconnect that makes him, at that point, completely unworthy of her attention or interest. It shows how far below humanity the vampires actually are.
But it also shows that Spike should not be judged by the same metric as humans. Humans already *know*, or *should* know, that this is baseline human behavior. Spike has no reason to know that. In fact, his standards are all twisted (because vampires are expected to feed, and not to worry about the state of their victims — why would it matter?).
So if you try to grade him on his behavior, you have to realize that he’s starting at like -3000. With a human adult, you might show favor if they get to, say, a score of 200. With a human child, you might applaud much smaller results — say a score of 50 — because you’re trying to encourage growth, and be aware of their limitations and not expect the same from them as you might expect from an adult (that’s why we don’t harshly critique a child’s scribbles, or all the wrinkles when they make their bed with the sheet on sideways).
With a vampire, you need to go deeper, because a score of -2800 is still the kind of progress that would get a human adult to a score of 200. And if you don’t help the vampire to associate that growth with positive benefits, there’s no way he’s going to see the point in growing out of that deficit. Why bother? nobody’s gonna care.
It does get weird with fictional characters with actual detriments like that. But it could also be applied to, say, a person from a highly racist (or sexist) culture, who has come to a less racist culture and is slowly undoing those racist attitudes. Or a person who was raised by narcissists and developed “fleas,” or behavior that seems normal in a narcissistic household but is highly maladaptive in a normal human environment — you give them more leeway to grow, and treat them more gently while helping them to understand what’s wrong. That sort of thing.
ZING. Selkie 1, Tehk 0.
Bonus assist for calling Amanda “almost kind-of chill” and acknowledging her as her sister.
Huh, Selkie’s pluralsing less already! And I want to know more about Tehk’s past now.
omg the second thing. This page had me going “how long has it been since her adoption? a year and a half? man that’s some fast emotional development.”
Closer to half to three-fourths a year. Selkie hasn’t even had her first birthday yet with her new family. It’s getting warmer so we’ve hit spring almost.
Well played Selkie. And while she may not be the strongest in powers, she steps into the Echo leadership role naturally. Now if she can learn to channel that for good, lol.
Yay! Selkie just name-checked my planet!
I am in love with chibi Te Fahn.
I’ve just gone back and confirmed a suspicion. Today (May 24th) is Selkie’s birthday.
Happy May 24th!