Could probably be that the only time they ever interact is when they exchange goods and services.
I can imagine an artist hiring a builder to make a shed, completing the job, then both parties going to their respective bars and the artist complain about how plain the shed looks while the builder complains that the client’s home looks ridiculous.
you “know” that a “country hick Farmer” farmed it and he most likely paid a pittance to the “migrant workers” that picked it, put it on the trucks for shipment to your local grocery, whereas that “down home ol’ Farmer” knows that his produce get’s picked and shipped by them “lazy assed migrants that i’m paying too much for not enough work” to be shipped off to the “big City” for those “city slickers that keep trying to buy up my farmland for them stupid Condo’s”
See!? Stereotypes work BOTH WAYS for people that don’t actually interact with each other personally, i see the same thing happening here as well.
In medieval Europe the guilds (professions) were all very secretive, with their own institutions of self-help and law (and their own handshakes- like us!). It was easy enough to engage their services, but you wouldn’t be welcome in their lodges. It was permissible to caricature their members (Chaucer!) and it’s still the case with the professions today- think of our stereotypical lawyers or actors or artists.
Since in Sarnothi society the professions are allocated along “racial” lines it’ll be a lot harder for we humans to understand that this racial element (though undoubtedly present) may be far subordinate to the professional. It’s an alien mind set after all.
Sarnoth might not even have a concept of race, since for the most part it’s an arbitrary human social construct (like at a time the irish were considered their own race / not white).
I would still say the kid’s behavior is racist, he’s placing positive and negative values on certain traits shared by different groups and he’s treating someone differently as a result. Being “sheltered” may be the reason, but it’s not an excuse. It reminds me of the artist Humon’s comics about Danish people being so not used to non-white folks they say insulting or just ignorant stuff.
Yea another SatW fan. 🙂
This is about the first piece of showing that their culture is different/alien/Blerp than ours I think. While we’ve seen their technology and lifestyles being different, the Sarnothi have been shown as very similar to us overall. Seeing that their culture does not discourage racism and at least indirectly encourages it makes me wonder what other big ideas society takes for granted they wouldn’t and vice verse. (And remember folks – Unfortunately legally racism wasn’t discouraged until rather recently in the US history, and could still be shown to have governmental racist rules/regulations today.) So a culture that treats their differences by being so insular that they can believe others don’t even exist (Pohl’s myth comment earlier) may not be so far-fetched after all?
If you come at it from a non-European-white POV you realize that it’s even more widespread than that; try being a white European in Japan (where it is essentially impossible to gain citizenship as a foreigner) or in India (where your accent can keep you out of certain careers) and you realize that racism is alive and well in the world.
Yes it is. I like the atmosphere in the comments which has been very much against racism. But it is a new idea for most of the world. However, in Dave’s world we’ve seen multiculturalism abounding without much issue (Todd’s family jumps to mind), so having a main set of characters that are blatant was jarring a little bit. Which contrasted from Sarnothi culture to Todd’s cultural view.
Well, there’s also the point that many people tend to think of racism as a binary state: WE are the good guys who are not racist and THEY are the bad guys who ARE racist.
One thing Harry Potter did superbly well was have the good guys show racism and prejudice repeatedly. Ron Weasely, for example, has racist views against just about every non-human creature, yet only knows (and likes) one of each (giant, werewolf, etc.).
John Granger, a professor who’s thoroughly studied the books, makes the point that each book in the series also pulls in the reader to this idea of conquering prejudice, by having the reader buy into a particular viewpoint about a given character and having that viewpoint overturned by the end of the book.
Not only are humans prone to racism from birth (they’ve figured this out with babies; our brains are just wired for “they all look alike to me”), but we’re being counter-productive when we treat it like a thing that only villains do (and fail to acknowledge our own failings), or like a thing that you can fully get rid of or that some groups “just don’t have.”
It’s one thing to shame people for deliberate racism (trying to harm others based on race), but it’s not helpful to shame them for unthinking racism (the things our brains do to categorize data in a data-overload world)… and it makes them less likely to want to change, and less likely to want to acknowledge their failings.
When we, as individuals, run into some prejudice of our own, we should acknowledge it, determine to what degree it can and should be corrected, and correct it. Without feeling too terribly bad about having been human in the first place. If you care about freeing yourself from prejudice, and you are careful to undo any obvious damage you’ve unwittingly created, then noticing your own prejudice shouldn’t be a bad thing, but a chance to mature.
It’s literally that Pohl. You’re just taking extra steps to say it. And that behavior shouldn’t be acceptable. Especially considering it came from a child.
I checked back to 1051 where the crossed out banners were hanging and they match up to those colors, so it appears based on the clan symbols green is Sar’Teri, blue is Mor’kama, red is Jin’sorai, and yellow is Tel’Dora.
Cue some commenters: “Sure, we have just been told Tekh was raised knowing little about other clans except stereotypes, and he has had virtually no chance to learn about the minefields of human racism, so he is reacting the way you would expect. That doesn’t matter. I’m going to brush that away. Just excuses. I still get to judge him. Any resemblance to the group I hate (racists) makes him a member of the group. So, he’s one of those, therefore he will be as bad as all the others. After all, I do have to uphold my own stereotypes!”
Always important to remember that racism and culturism aren’t the same thing. Cultures can actually BE bad, and you can choose to leave (or with more difficulty, join) them. The strong association of race and culture IS racist.
Blerp?
Yep, blerp.
Well Dave, like my mother always told me – “If you can’t think of anything nice to say don’t say anything.” Blerp.
Blerp.
So say we all.
And “Blerp” is now how Selkie fans must greet each other.
We should have a handshake too…
We do! =D Point your fingers/claws toward yourself and give a long blink! 😉
*assumes Sarnothi greeting stance*
“Blerp.”
Yay! I am fully in favor of both of these things.
Now how to recognize Selkie fans in the wild….
I’m deeply obliged, Batgirl1- but be careful, I’ve intimidated so many colleagues doing that today!
Weird. How does one get products from an artisan or have a building erected without ever interacting with said clan member?
Could probably be that the only time they ever interact is when they exchange goods and services.
I can imagine an artist hiring a builder to make a shed, completing the job, then both parties going to their respective bars and the artist complain about how plain the shed looks while the builder complains that the client’s home looks ridiculous.
how do you get your food?
you “know” that a “country hick Farmer” farmed it and he most likely paid a pittance to the “migrant workers” that picked it, put it on the trucks for shipment to your local grocery, whereas that “down home ol’ Farmer” knows that his produce get’s picked and shipped by them “lazy assed migrants that i’m paying too much for not enough work” to be shipped off to the “big City” for those “city slickers that keep trying to buy up my farmland for them stupid Condo’s”
See!? Stereotypes work BOTH WAYS for people that don’t actually interact with each other personally, i see the same thing happening here as well.
Good question, and good points both.
In medieval Europe the guilds (professions) were all very secretive, with their own institutions of self-help and law (and their own handshakes- like us!). It was easy enough to engage their services, but you wouldn’t be welcome in their lodges. It was permissible to caricature their members (Chaucer!) and it’s still the case with the professions today- think of our stereotypical lawyers or actors or artists.
Since in Sarnothi society the professions are allocated along “racial” lines it’ll be a lot harder for we humans to understand that this racial element (though undoubtedly present) may be far subordinate to the professional. It’s an alien mind set after all.
Sarnoth might not even have a concept of race, since for the most part it’s an arbitrary human social construct (like at a time the irish were considered their own race / not white).
Nice point, Mikael. There’s a great recent Scientific American article on the topic,
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/
Blerp!
I would still say the kid’s behavior is racist, he’s placing positive and negative values on certain traits shared by different groups and he’s treating someone differently as a result. Being “sheltered” may be the reason, but it’s not an excuse. It reminds me of the artist Humon’s comics about Danish people being so not used to non-white folks they say insulting or just ignorant stuff.
Yea another SatW fan. 🙂
This is about the first piece of showing that their culture is different/alien/Blerp than ours I think. While we’ve seen their technology and lifestyles being different, the Sarnothi have been shown as very similar to us overall. Seeing that their culture does not discourage racism and at least indirectly encourages it makes me wonder what other big ideas society takes for granted they wouldn’t and vice verse. (And remember folks – Unfortunately legally racism wasn’t discouraged until rather recently in the US history, and could still be shown to have governmental racist rules/regulations today.) So a culture that treats their differences by being so insular that they can believe others don’t even exist (Pohl’s myth comment earlier) may not be so far-fetched after all?
If you come at it from a non-European-white POV you realize that it’s even more widespread than that; try being a white European in Japan (where it is essentially impossible to gain citizenship as a foreigner) or in India (where your accent can keep you out of certain careers) and you realize that racism is alive and well in the world.
Yes it is. I like the atmosphere in the comments which has been very much against racism. But it is a new idea for most of the world. However, in Dave’s world we’ve seen multiculturalism abounding without much issue (Todd’s family jumps to mind), so having a main set of characters that are blatant was jarring a little bit. Which contrasted from Sarnothi culture to Todd’s cultural view.
Well, there’s also the point that many people tend to think of racism as a binary state: WE are the good guys who are not racist and THEY are the bad guys who ARE racist.
One thing Harry Potter did superbly well was have the good guys show racism and prejudice repeatedly. Ron Weasely, for example, has racist views against just about every non-human creature, yet only knows (and likes) one of each (giant, werewolf, etc.).
John Granger, a professor who’s thoroughly studied the books, makes the point that each book in the series also pulls in the reader to this idea of conquering prejudice, by having the reader buy into a particular viewpoint about a given character and having that viewpoint overturned by the end of the book.
Not only are humans prone to racism from birth (they’ve figured this out with babies; our brains are just wired for “they all look alike to me”), but we’re being counter-productive when we treat it like a thing that only villains do (and fail to acknowledge our own failings), or like a thing that you can fully get rid of or that some groups “just don’t have.”
It’s one thing to shame people for deliberate racism (trying to harm others based on race), but it’s not helpful to shame them for unthinking racism (the things our brains do to categorize data in a data-overload world)… and it makes them less likely to want to change, and less likely to want to acknowledge their failings.
When we, as individuals, run into some prejudice of our own, we should acknowledge it, determine to what degree it can and should be corrected, and correct it. Without feeling too terribly bad about having been human in the first place. If you care about freeing yourself from prejudice, and you are careful to undo any obvious damage you’ve unwittingly created, then noticing your own prejudice shouldn’t be a bad thing, but a chance to mature.
SaTW yah!!!!!! I love them too
It’s literally that Pohl. You’re just taking extra steps to say it. And that behavior shouldn’t be acceptable. Especially considering it came from a child.
Which color is which clan on that pie chart? I assume Green is the SarTeri; is this correct
I checked back to 1051 where the crossed out banners were hanging and they match up to those colors, so it appears based on the clan symbols green is Sar’Teri, blue is Mor’kama, red is Jin’sorai, and yellow is Tel’Dora.
Green is Sar’teri, Blue is Tel’Dora, Red is Jin’Sorai, yellow is Mor’Kama.
Doh! Thought I read the symbols right.
At 2:38 in the morning, I wouldn’t know what to say either, Blerp indeed.
Cue some commenters: “Sure, we have just been told Tekh was raised knowing little about other clans except stereotypes, and he has had virtually no chance to learn about the minefields of human racism, so he is reacting the way you would expect. That doesn’t matter. I’m going to brush that away. Just excuses. I still get to judge him. Any resemblance to the group I hate (racists) makes him a member of the group. So, he’s one of those, therefore he will be as bad as all the others. After all, I do have to uphold my own stereotypes!”
I’m a rebel!
Plerb!
Always important to remember that racism and culturism aren’t the same thing. Cultures can actually BE bad, and you can choose to leave (or with more difficulty, join) them. The strong association of race and culture IS racist.
Yeah, blerp. This issue is a minefield made up of minefields made up of kittens wearing mines.
And hamsters with sharp knives duct-taped to their backs.