I’m actually pretty frustrated with the dialogue on this one because, but gonna post it and move on.
↓ Transcript
Selkie: Mister Pohl and Scar should just let others help!
Gien: That’s not really possible. The Echoes are the only ones who can generate the energy necessary to cut and
shape blocks for houses.
Selkie: No, they aren’t. Humans don’t have Echoes, but they still make giant buildings. They just build tools to help them do it better!
Gien: I promise you, we have thought of that. Pohl and Scar can make tools for the rest of us to help with small labor, but not large-scale production.
Selkie: Then why not use human tools? We’re already friends, and Mister Brown loves helping!
Gien: Human construction tools don’t work underwater, child
Selkie: Then don’t build underwater! Build on the surface! One of us! One of us!
Gien: That’s not really possible. The Echoes are the only ones who can generate the energy necessary to cut and
shape blocks for houses.
Selkie: No, they aren’t. Humans don’t have Echoes, but they still make giant buildings. They just build tools to help them do it better!
Gien: I promise you, we have thought of that. Pohl and Scar can make tools for the rest of us to help with small labor, but not large-scale production.
Selkie: Then why not use human tools? We’re already friends, and Mister Brown loves helping!
Gien: Human construction tools don’t work underwater, child
Selkie: Then don’t build underwater! Build on the surface! One of us! One of us!
Reasons for frustration: underwater construction is a real thing, but it doesn't work for that to be the solution here, and lots of unnecessary fussing was spent explaining why that won't work before I just opted to cut it and skip the issue.
One of us! One of us! lmao selkie
I hope she means build stuff on the surface then move it into the water.
She could also mean build near the shoreline where they have ready access to water.
All that said, she probably DOES mean to just live like humans do, but that’s because she’s spent most of her life living that way and doesn’t appreciate just how enormous a culture shock it would be for those raised in the Lake.
I wouldn’t be too frustrated if I were you. I think it’s pretty understandable for Gien to not go into the exact specifics regarding human underwater construction tools and just blanketly state that they don’t work underwater to get his point across. Especially right now when he’s obviously getting rather irritated with “some upstart child who thinks she knows better than us!(us meaning Gien of course)”.
I mean, humans can make the tools work underwater. We just haven’t had much of a reason for doing so yet. I’d imagine if the tools industry knew there was a underserved group that needed underwater tools, they’d start cranking something out real damn quick.
There are quite a few construction companies specializing in underwater work who would like to have a quick word, too. “No diving suits required, you say? They can see fine down there without lamps? ‘What’ses the bendses?’ Let me get out some business cards with our recruiter’s name on them.”
I know Sarnothi evolved in fresh water, but can they operate in salt water? If so, you’d have even more groups looking to pay high wages and save on equipment/insurance costs.
well worse case they surely could wear a wet suit in salt water no more restrictive than humans would need. and even at that they natural nature of being aquatic creatures would be a big advantage. ie, things like selkie hanging upside without a care in the water.
really assume they can handle skin contact with salt water, they might really only need a helmet and chest covering to protect their gills letting the rest of the body be free of restrictions.
and we already know from the pants incident that they can make a water tight helmet easily enough with the echos.
It’s not the salt water on skin that’s the problem, it’s breathing in the salt water. It could hurt their gills and lungs.
generally for short periods they can survive just fine in Saltish or brackish water. Its actually a treatment for certain fish parasites. In fact if they were to move to warmer water the extra ions that salt would have would help O2 uptake. (adding a SLIGHT amount of salt to warm fresh water fish like discus fish is a known thing)
if they ar raising freshwater eels and exist in a hard water environment already They SHOULD tolerate moderately hard Brackish water just fine. (like the cleaner portions of the chesapeake bay)
If they are Euryhaline they can tollerate just about anygoddamnthing. (like Monos and Bullsharks and Tarpon)
Its not really the gills you have to worry about it the kidneys and intracellular osmotic pressure.
Ive seen betta fish kept in salt water (due to water softening systems) . and Gold fish kept for DECADES in magnesium permagnate (which is a salt that turns the water purple)
Can we get a alt-universe plotline where the sarnothi refugees get filthy stinking rich being underwater welders?
They _could_ very easily reinvigorate the Great Lakes region’s shipping and shipbuilding industry…
Even if they can’t handle salt water in their gills (a good point, that), the Mississippi River jobs alone would give them tons of work. Lots of bridges over the Big Muddy, and some of ’em are pretty old.
There’s also a lot of freshwater jobs in Europe, and other areas as well.
Gien’s FACE!
I really love seeing these two interact. Gien is not entirely incapable of dealing with children, and seems to be slowly coming to understand just how much Selkie is more ,human, than sarnothi.
Selkie is really enjoying being able to freely move in 3 dimensions
Yep… NOW she can touch the ceiling…
I don’t see any good reason why we couldn’t build structures topside and then sink them. Selkie’s got a strong point here.
Gien: “Because Humans.”
Caissons come to mind, like those used in building the two major suspension bridges on San Francisco Bay or those in building the (A man, a plan, a canal, Panama)…
Over hill, over dale, as we hit the dusty trail! And those Caissons go rolling along.
…
…
… Sorry… Wrong Caissons…
dude what they are living in are scaled up versions of what I have in my fish tanks.
Ive got Terracotta stuff and Glazed Pots in my tanks for fish to hide in. that kind of stuff you can make EASY on land and lower it in. If you make it out of something like glazed pottery it will last god damn near forever.
if you make it out of a solid dense polyester resin. It WILL last fo goddamn ever.
One problem is heat, the structures the Sarnothi build have something Echo-y in them. So, polyester and fiberglass with a thin R-50 unicel-foam lining? That work?
Oh, man. Gien is NEVER going to make Selkie toe his line.
She’s also 100% right. There’s no reason they can’t do things like this, now that humans know about them.
Side note: We are already capable of underwater welding. So at least some of it wouldn’t have to be built on the surface.
Oh man, Gien’s schemes are going up in smoke and I love it. I imagine he’d be mortified at the idea of more sarnothi assimilating with surface culture instead of living in their own separate enclaves. Although admittedly, they might simply be more comfortable in water since that’s what their bodies are designed for. Though as another commenter said, there’s always the possibility of building structures on the surface with combined human-sar labor, then transporting them to the lake and sinking them. It would take some logistics work, but between the federal government and the Echoes I think its doable.
I also find it kind of heartwarming how strongly Selkie has settled into surface life with her human family. It sets a good precedent for future species relations.
Another idea is why not use bricks that are made on land and have them dropped into the area? I mean, if humans can make bricks in bulk, why not have 15 pallets of them dropped in rather than having 2 people make them one at a time? Gien is just so used to doing things a certain way, he can’t comprehend that there might be another way.
actually it might have been better to argue that it was the building materials that were the issues not the tools.
I suspect the echo made building materials are more stable for long term (basically forever terms) use in water than things humans make. you are really limited in what kind of materials you can use if you expect them to be constantly underwater and not deteriorate and outside of naval construction and a few specialized industries there is no large scale production of such things.
so just claim the echos making building materials that we are calling “bricks” (we can kind of ret con them into being more than simple mud bricks with a little hand waving) are specialized materials to handle the constant water exposure as well as thermal cycling that water does. add in PH balancing issues which can come in.
it still an issue that top side humans can help with given some time and design requirements, but does give gien a semi leg to stand on for his argument.
@Jamwa, no you can use simple glazed brick in easy to fit large chunks. Brick lasts for centuries in water. As long as its not going through a freeze thaw cycle to cause it to spall and deteriorate. a marine grade epoxy to hold the material together. Regular GLASS works fine too lasts for centuries underwater as long as the sand and wave action isnt erroding it
Out of the razor-toothed mouths of babes and sucklings…
“Just build the underwater civilization on the surface!”
Brilliant idea, Selkie. I’m sure Gien will consider that idea exactly as much as he feels it deserves considering.
On a related note, I know the perfect human to help with this. He’s already been building underwater habitats for over a decade. They’re habitats for hamsters, but it’s still a working proof of concept.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCkKEaHsVor1iYpbvZoourqQ
They could build the homes on the surface, then deliver them underwater. That’s how tunnels underwater get built, actually! They’re built above ground, sealed airtight. Then they are submerged, welded into place, and the seals are removed from within.
Now, obviously the big issue here isn’t really that the Sarnothi only work with stone for buildings. We have stonemasons. We can use concrete. We can carve stone with lasers, water saws, etc. We can even transport them with trucks, trains, and subs.
But then they’d be made by HUMANS. And humans are GROOOOOOSSSSSSSSSSS. So, Gien would poo-poo the idea even if it came from Pohl or Scar… (*ESPECIALLY* if it came from them…)
@Aria, concrete is bad. It changes the PH of the water. dont use concrete.
I hope that my three-year-old granddaughter turns out as delightful as Selkie; she’s well on the way…
MUCH simpler explanation, and perfectly reasonable:
1) Selkie doesn’t know that humans are farily adept at building underwater structures much more involved than a small refugee village (and isn’t thinking of the simple alternative that you just make the materials on the surface and winch them down), so she’s suggesting an alternative she does know about, and no one present would have any idea she’s ignorant of human engineering capability.
2) Regardless, it’s going to be much cheaper to build on the surface for a vaireity fo reasons, and MUCH easier and cheaper to administer and interact with the settlement, so if this is subsidized by the US government there would be substantial institutional reasons for them to want to build for settlers on the surface rather than underwater. The only cost advantage to underwater is the ground it’s on is cheap, and it probably eases jurisdictional concerns.
It makes sense. The Sarnothi, like dolphins and whales, could never make/control fire and electricity because you just can’t if you don’t have some kind of land-based civilization. You need to develop those things on land, because they are incompatible with water. Instead, they sidestepped that issue with Echoes. They’re smart enough to understand our technology, but they have no way to automate anything at all.
You could have Gien or someone else describe that simply as “machines require electricity, and we never developed that.” Electricity and motors are just “portable Echoes,” but we can make them in a factory, unlike Sarnothi.
The Romans developed a type of cement that set underwater. They used it to construct harbours and other water structures, some of which are still standing today, almost 2,000 years later. I’m sure sharing the recipe with the Sarnothi would be a relatively minor thing, opening up a market for the ingredients and the beginning of inter-species trade.
changes the water ph around it. no bueno for fish. trust me.
Build inland and move to the lake bottom. We already do flat pack style buildings where the walls and such are built and transported to the location. Sure that could work with some modification in design.
Shes inspired by Todd, an architect, who designs buildings for a living!
I’m embarrassed to admit that this never occurred to me. Of course she’s familiar with the idea of constructing homes. It’s what her dad does for a living. If Selkie can push this idea to someone who is more open than Gien, Todd might make a killing as an architect that specifically designs Sarnothi dwellings.
Also while Mr Brown and a lot of others certainly do love helping people, that help probably does have some monetary ceiling.
How much is Gien trying to establish power/control of the Echo to do things his way? Building blocks now, the world later?
Gobble gobble!
I love that she’s upside-down at the end. It’s perfect.
Sigh…just get some college engineer students to design construction equipment for the Sarnothi that can work underwater and build the stuff they need.
Gien, let me introduce u to the human concept of (bridges, fancy hotels, underwater labs, probably a long a‐‐ list of things I missed)
grath there is even an underwater strip club..
We absolutely do have the ability to construct (and deconstruct) underwater.
One of my home country’s bigger engineering firms specializes in salvage recovery, raising capsized ships and on one occasion a full-size submarine that had sunk to the bottom of the ocean (Mind, they wound up having to saw it in half to lift it, long story)…
Dave acknowledged that this is true in the secret commentary, that there is underwater construction, but it doesn’t work to be a solution here, and a lot of fussing was made in explaining how this wouldn’t work, so Dave just cut that out all together.
And honestly, how would a child and someone who has never lived on the surface and seems to dislike their human neighbors know about underwater construction, it’s reasonable to think that neither of them would think of this. Considering I’m just learning about this, and I’m no spring chicken, it’s reasonable others wouldn’t.