I wanted Then's stealth effect to be subdued and hard to notice because I hate it when stealth effects are portrayed in media by methods that are visible to the viewer's naked eye. Also so he wasn't noticed too early. :P
Now I’m wondering … the Sarnothi “network” must be relatively small. Would Pohl and his family also know Then? And is he someone they would trust? And … I’m assuming that as this arc continues we’ll learn more about Then and his place in “the system.” This is one thing I like about this comic, the more questions that get answered the more new questions develop.
That was a long explanation to say that “Then” is pronounced “then”. I didn’t spot the capital letter until I read the comments, I just thought “use tensei then” was a sentence.
Actually, it’s not pronounced like “then”! What Dave is saying is that the /th/ sound is not voiced as it is in the word “then,” but made voicelessly, like the /th/ on the end of the word “bath.” Try comparing “bath” to “bathe” to hear the difference! 🙂 – Speech-Language Pathologist in training
As a foreigner who thinks he has a pretty tight grasp on the English language, there’s no difference in then, Then, bath, bathe, with, though, through and throw/threw.
Thought, however DOES have a more ringing T in it.
Actually, if you’re speaking almost any dialect of English, there’s an actual physiological difference. It’s a case of voicing within the vocal folds of the larynx, the same thing that makes the difference between the English sounds of /s/ versus /z/ and /p/ versus /b/.
They might not sound very different to your ear, but if you place a hand on your throat you may be able to feel the difference. Depending on your first language, though, you might not produce two different /th/ sounds!
It’s an interesting fact that’s been noted before (though maybe not here): English and Dutch have the same cadence. Many years ago my mother was traveling in the Netherlands and she described a surreal feeling of the lilt of conversations around her being just like English but not being able to understand a word. Like being in a dream!
Since they’re both coming from Anglosakson, I can agree to that. The only real difference is the difference in time placement in a sentence, and the complete grammar difference. That’s what makes Dutch so hard to learn as a foreigner. That and the many synonyms we have.
For a grammar example, proper English:
“Yesterday, we went to the market at 11 o’ clock”
To make it clear how we mostly talk, I need to use ‘have gone’ instead of went for Dutch.
Literal translation of a proper Dutch sentence with words in the same order as it would be in Dutch:
“We have yesterday at 11 o’ clock to the market gone”. :-p
I tried to do a Rosetta Stone learning of Dutch. Unfortunately, all the headphones which work well with it do not work equally well with hearing aids. I stopped after my husband (who speaks) kept coming downstairs to interrupt my one-sided angry arguments with the computer as to whether or not I was repeating what the computer had actually said (as opposed to what I heard).
@Muchacho:
I am a native English speaker in Flanders 😀 After many years here, I’m already impressed when native Dutch speakers can make *one* of the ‘th’ sounds decently when speaking English, rather than the generic ‘tuh’ sound that is ususually substituted…
I worked (rather intesively) with my husband for ~3 years to get him to ‘th’ correctly. But it is possible!
I liken the problem for NT2 people and our pronounciation and listening comprention for sch/sj: ‘scherp’/’sjerp’ or ‘schaal’/’sjaal’. It’s not *quite* the same problem, but similar… ^-^
Wat betreft het moelijkste van het leren Nederlands… uit mijn eigen ervaring is het een bijzin maken. Er zijn concrete regels om de bijwoordelijke bepalingen in de meest gebruikte plekken te plaatsen (TeMPo) en ook voor het volgorde binnen één van die bepalingen (T: algemeen –> specifiek P: omgekeerd). In vergelijking zijn bijzinnen kei moeilijk ;___;
I’m wondering which, if any, dialects of English would fail to distinguish the pairs in “I bathe in the bath” and “I sheathe my sword in the sheath” and “I let out a breath then breathe in again.” (The verb is voiced, the noun is voiceless/unvoiced.)
Similarly: “I use it for its intended use,” though there’s no visual marker between the two words.
Also, “This, then, is thin” has voicing on the first two but not on the last.
101 Languages says that Dutch has basic pairs p/b t/d (though, interestingly, you don’t appear to have a k/g pair, just the k — your g has only the affricate as in “gem”… do you have trouble with words like “girl”?) and s/z. Assuming its info is not horribly off-base, you definitely have voiceless/voiced contrasts. As Hilary said, you should be able to put your hand to your throat and feel a buzz for one sound and a lack of buzz for another: pip/bib tit/did sass/zazz. Similar concept for the pairs bath/bathe (except the vowel changes too, like cap/cape), breath/breathe, and Then/then in this case.
To be honest, if I speak your sentences out loud, only the middle pair sounds completely the same: sheathe and sheath.
our G’s are voiced (especially above the province Noord Brabant) more like we are about to hock a loogie. Though we are tought English at a young age, so we don’t have problems with pronouncing girl… for us it’s like a softer version of the C in ‘curl’. (which sounds like our K 😉 )
But really, I literally can’t feel any difference when uttering most of these words: first four pairs: yes. Second three… no. Only vowel changes… but the /th/ is always the same as I pronounce them.
The only thing I’m getting is that the “th” in Then is longer and whistled (as in, blowing air past tongue) than in then?
This is why I hate phonetics.
Am I the only one concerned by the stealth technology on display here? (or rather, I would be concerned if I lived in this comic.) The Jin’Sorai were out for human blood back in comic #406. If they had gotten their way, highly advanced, invisible assassins would have infiltrated human territory without anyone noticing a darn thing until the crap hit the fan.
With so much superior technology on display it’s becoming more and more apparent that the Sarnothi could conquer us on a whim if they though it was worth the trouble. As tragic and as horrible as it was for Selkie’s clan to be wiped out, just imagine what kind of vengeance the Jin’Sorai would have taken on us if the Sar’Teri hadn’t stopped them.
Well, you have to remember, we humans have the advantage of numbers and resources on our side. Sure, there would be some assassinations, but the Sarnothi are just one city-state.
When I think of what the Sarnothi could accomplish, I’m reminded of the British Empire. Great Briton was about the size of lake superior, (where Sarnoth is located) but it still managed to carve out an empire larger than any other throughout history, and kept it going for more than a century. Granted, it would often do so by working through the pre-existing local governments, but it’s an example of how technology can easily compensate for low numbers.
“Live by the eyeballs, die by the eyeballs: as true in cuisine as it is in life.”
Ladies and gentlemen and those not falling into either category, we have the best character of the new year, and his name is Agent Then.
I like Agent Then already. He’s Tel’Dora by coloring (scholar/scientist), wearing human clothes, and refers to Brown as “Senior” so apparently he’s a government employee. But seems to have a lot more lighthearted attitude than your usual fed.
I have to wonder, with Pohl and his family living quite openly in a suburban house, and Then in a government job, how many other Sarnothi have been accepted in human society . . . and why Selkie was such a mystery to the orphanage staff.
So… Is Then the guy we’ve seen in the background in Brown’s office or am I being terribly specist falling into the trap of thinking all Sarnothi of the same phenotype look alike?
Based on his speech patterns he seems to be the least assimilated Sarnothi we’ve seen so far. Does this just mean he’s fresh out of the lake or a liaison with the city?
Wey: It’s an obvious method of detection for any kind of personal stealth that doesn’t block audio, air currents, and (arguably) bioelectricity/psychic imprint. But hey, another Dresden Files fan! Then’s snarky referencing reminds me of several characters from the series, including Harry himself.
If Then keeps up this line of humour, I might get used to thinking of him as Thendere.
Anyway, I’m not sure I understand the pronunciation guide. Is it like “thin”? I’m not sure I’m familiar with the two different “th” sounds of which Hilary is speaking, but the closest I can get is that one (“thin”, in my American dialect) is hissy, and the other (“then”, in my dialect) is buzzy. (Aspirated vs. sibilant, y’ken.)
Thin/then, thin/this, through/though, bath/bathe, breath/breathe, sheath/sheathe. Some transliterations use th/dh. The word “then” in English uses the sound DH (voiced), and the guide is saying that the Sarnothi’s name takes the sound TH (unvoiced) because otherwise we’d just pronounce it like the normal English word even if capitalized.
I think I get it now… and I can slightly sence the difference now. Though most of the TH sounds I should make, I am making the DH sounds as well.
To caricaturise, the differences would be a heavy German accent or a heavy French accent 😉
Sin/Zen, Sin/Zis, Srough/Zough, bass/baze, breas/breeze, sheesh/sheeze.
Dave, don’t in the least be troubled by making stealthed characters “too hard to see.” It’s one of those delightful bonuses for those who spot it and a “holy cow I gotta go back and read the archive yikes he was there all along and I totally missed it!” for those who learn about it later — either way a delight.
A lot of series — most, I would warrant — would hand-hold the audience through the whole thing, and I hate that. A lot of old comics would be narrating their own actions just to make sure the readers would understand: “He shot me right in the chest! Luckily my super intangibility powers let that bullet pass harmlessly through me” or whatever, and it was patronizing and really irritating. Trust your readers to pick up on stuff without having to guide us through it, and in the case of “easter egg” sort of things like the stealth characters, keep it simple and hidden like it ought to be.
You ever see the movie Shrek? And The Sixth Sense? Those two each have a scene where you read it two distinct ways, and it completely changes your understanding of the words being used. Shrek has you learn immediately that the character, not the audience, is misunderstanding the interaction. The Sixth Sense, on the other hand, lets you sit through that scene thinking all signs point to XYZ, and then once you realize the twist ending you revisit that scene and think holy cow, it’s not XYZ, it’s all GVQ! That moment of realization is worth all the world, and your stealth guys manage to accomplish it.
Dave, I’m pretty sure that you meant Then’s name is pronounced like a HARD ‘th’ sound. A SOFT ‘th’ sound would be how the regular English word “then” is pronounced, I think.
Maybe the pronunciation of the name “Then” should be made a bit clearer; I’d suggest an apostrophe (“Th’en”), but the apostrophe seems to have already a meaning in the transcript of Tensei that is used here. (Maybe “Th^en” / “Th`en”, “Th°en” or similar?)
Also, although it’s clear from the context in these cases, I’d like the flashbacks to be denoted a bit clearer, like by the “dream style” by rounding the corners of the panels, or by using a cloudy border with a special background (like in https://selkiecomic.com/comic/selkie241/).
Now I’m wondering … the Sarnothi “network” must be relatively small. Would Pohl and his family also know Then? And is he someone they would trust? And … I’m assuming that as this arc continues we’ll learn more about Then and his place in “the system.” This is one thing I like about this comic, the more questions that get answered the more new questions develop.
I like Then. He’s cheeky!
Oooh, more Sarnothi! Then looks like a Tel’Dora…which would make sense, especially if he was involved with Selkie’s placement.
Eeee, exciting!
Also makes sense with his poetry.
That was a long explanation to say that “Then” is pronounced “then”. I didn’t spot the capital letter until I read the comments, I just thought “use tensei then” was a sentence.
Actually, it’s not pronounced like “then”! What Dave is saying is that the /th/ sound is not voiced as it is in the word “then,” but made voicelessly, like the /th/ on the end of the word “bath.” Try comparing “bath” to “bathe” to hear the difference! 🙂 – Speech-Language Pathologist in training
As a foreigner who thinks he has a pretty tight grasp on the English language, there’s no difference in then, Then, bath, bathe, with, though, through and throw/threw.
Thought, however DOES have a more ringing T in it.
Actually, if you’re speaking almost any dialect of English, there’s an actual physiological difference. It’s a case of voicing within the vocal folds of the larynx, the same thing that makes the difference between the English sounds of /s/ versus /z/ and /p/ versus /b/.
They might not sound very different to your ear, but if you place a hand on your throat you may be able to feel the difference. Depending on your first language, though, you might not produce two different /th/ sounds!
My first language is Dutch, and I indeed can’t feel the difference. (No, not German :p)
It’s an interesting fact that’s been noted before (though maybe not here): English and Dutch have the same cadence. Many years ago my mother was traveling in the Netherlands and she described a surreal feeling of the lilt of conversations around her being just like English but not being able to understand a word. Like being in a dream!
Since they’re both coming from Anglosakson, I can agree to that. The only real difference is the difference in time placement in a sentence, and the complete grammar difference. That’s what makes Dutch so hard to learn as a foreigner. That and the many synonyms we have.
For a grammar example, proper English:
“Yesterday, we went to the market at 11 o’ clock”
To make it clear how we mostly talk, I need to use ‘have gone’ instead of went for Dutch.
Literal translation of a proper Dutch sentence with words in the same order as it would be in Dutch:
“We have yesterday at 11 o’ clock to the market gone”. :-p
I tried to do a Rosetta Stone learning of Dutch. Unfortunately, all the headphones which work well with it do not work equally well with hearing aids. I stopped after my husband (who speaks) kept coming downstairs to interrupt my one-sided angry arguments with the computer as to whether or not I was repeating what the computer had actually said (as opposed to what I heard).
@Muchacho:
I am a native English speaker in Flanders 😀 After many years here, I’m already impressed when native Dutch speakers can make *one* of the ‘th’ sounds decently when speaking English, rather than the generic ‘tuh’ sound that is ususually substituted…
I worked (rather intesively) with my husband for ~3 years to get him to ‘th’ correctly. But it is possible!
I liken the problem for NT2 people and our pronounciation and listening comprention for sch/sj: ‘scherp’/’sjerp’ or ‘schaal’/’sjaal’. It’s not *quite* the same problem, but similar… ^-^
Wat betreft het moelijkste van het leren Nederlands… uit mijn eigen ervaring is het een bijzin maken. Er zijn concrete regels om de bijwoordelijke bepalingen in de meest gebruikte plekken te plaatsen (TeMPo) en ook voor het volgorde binnen één van die bepalingen (T: algemeen –> specifiek P: omgekeerd). In vergelijking zijn bijzinnen kei moeilijk ;___;
I’m wondering which, if any, dialects of English would fail to distinguish the pairs in “I bathe in the bath” and “I sheathe my sword in the sheath” and “I let out a breath then breathe in again.” (The verb is voiced, the noun is voiceless/unvoiced.)
Similarly: “I use it for its intended use,” though there’s no visual marker between the two words.
Also, “This, then, is thin” has voicing on the first two but not on the last.
101 Languages says that Dutch has basic pairs p/b t/d (though, interestingly, you don’t appear to have a k/g pair, just the k — your g has only the affricate as in “gem”… do you have trouble with words like “girl”?) and s/z. Assuming its info is not horribly off-base, you definitely have voiceless/voiced contrasts. As Hilary said, you should be able to put your hand to your throat and feel a buzz for one sound and a lack of buzz for another: pip/bib tit/did sass/zazz. Similar concept for the pairs bath/bathe (except the vowel changes too, like cap/cape), breath/breathe, and Then/then in this case.
To be honest, if I speak your sentences out loud, only the middle pair sounds completely the same: sheathe and sheath.
our G’s are voiced (especially above the province Noord Brabant) more like we are about to hock a loogie. Though we are tought English at a young age, so we don’t have problems with pronouncing girl… for us it’s like a softer version of the C in ‘curl’. (which sounds like our K 😉 )
But really, I literally can’t feel any difference when uttering most of these words: first four pairs: yes. Second three… no. Only vowel changes… but the /th/ is always the same as I pronounce them.
taught*
Sheath rhymes with teeth, sheathe rhymes with seethe.
Understood 🙂
Point taken. Possibly the difference between the Welsh ‘Th’ and ‘Dd’ sounds.
The only thing I’m getting is that the “th” in Then is longer and whistled (as in, blowing air past tongue) than in then?
This is why I hate phonetics.
Am I the only one concerned by the stealth technology on display here? (or rather, I would be concerned if I lived in this comic.) The Jin’Sorai were out for human blood back in comic #406. If they had gotten their way, highly advanced, invisible assassins would have infiltrated human territory without anyone noticing a darn thing until the crap hit the fan.
With so much superior technology on display it’s becoming more and more apparent that the Sarnothi could conquer us on a whim if they though it was worth the trouble. As tragic and as horrible as it was for Selkie’s clan to be wiped out, just imagine what kind of vengeance the Jin’Sorai would have taken on us if the Sar’Teri hadn’t stopped them.
https://selkiecomic.com/comic/selkie406/
Heya. Sorry for not approving this comment earlier, but of a slip on my part.
No worries. 😉
Well, you have to remember, we humans have the advantage of numbers and resources on our side. Sure, there would be some assassinations, but the Sarnothi are just one city-state.
When I think of what the Sarnothi could accomplish, I’m reminded of the British Empire. Great Briton was about the size of lake superior, (where Sarnoth is located) but it still managed to carve out an empire larger than any other throughout history, and kept it going for more than a century. Granted, it would often do so by working through the pre-existing local governments, but it’s an example of how technology can easily compensate for low numbers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Empire
Heh, I thought that smudge in the top left corner of the PTA meeting had something to do with my screen 🙂
“Live by the eyeballs, die by the eyeballs: as true in cuisine as it is in life.”
Ladies and gentlemen and those not falling into either category, we have the best character of the new year, and his name is Agent Then.
I like Agent Then already. He’s Tel’Dora by coloring (scholar/scientist), wearing human clothes, and refers to Brown as “Senior” so apparently he’s a government employee. But seems to have a lot more lighthearted attitude than your usual fed.
I have to wonder, with Pohl and his family living quite openly in a suburban house, and Then in a government job, how many other Sarnothi have been accepted in human society . . . and why Selkie was such a mystery to the orphanage staff.
I think he tried to make a Sempai joke there…
Ugh, Senpai* of course.
Did you sneak that stealth realization method from Dresden Files? It’s almost exact. 😀
Yay, another Dresdenphile!
Parkour! 😀
So… Is Then the guy we’ve seen in the background in Brown’s office or am I being terribly specist falling into the trap of thinking all Sarnothi of the same phenotype look alike?
Based on his speech patterns he seems to be the least assimilated Sarnothi we’ve seen so far. Does this just mean he’s fresh out of the lake or a liaison with the city?
Wey: It’s an obvious method of detection for any kind of personal stealth that doesn’t block audio, air currents, and (arguably) bioelectricity/psychic imprint. But hey, another Dresden Files fan! Then’s snarky referencing reminds me of several characters from the series, including Harry himself.
If Then keeps up this line of humour, I might get used to thinking of him as Thendere.
Anyway, I’m not sure I understand the pronunciation guide. Is it like “thin”? I’m not sure I’m familiar with the two different “th” sounds of which Hilary is speaking, but the closest I can get is that one (“thin”, in my American dialect) is hissy, and the other (“then”, in my dialect) is buzzy. (Aspirated vs. sibilant, y’ken.)
I think he’s rather eloquent in English, not like Selkie with an obvious speech impediment.
Thin/then, thin/this, through/though, bath/bathe, breath/breathe, sheath/sheathe. Some transliterations use th/dh. The word “then” in English uses the sound DH (voiced), and the guide is saying that the Sarnothi’s name takes the sound TH (unvoiced) because otherwise we’d just pronounce it like the normal English word even if capitalized.
I think I get it now… and I can slightly sence the difference now. Though most of the TH sounds I should make, I am making the DH sounds as well.
To caricaturise, the differences would be a heavy German accent or a heavy French accent 😉
Sin/Zen, Sin/Zis, Srough/Zough, bass/baze, breas/breeze, sheesh/sheeze.
Ah, like “An’ T’EN I faught off a polar bear, b’hai”?
Dave, don’t in the least be troubled by making stealthed characters “too hard to see.” It’s one of those delightful bonuses for those who spot it and a “holy cow I gotta go back and read the archive yikes he was there all along and I totally missed it!” for those who learn about it later — either way a delight.
A lot of series — most, I would warrant — would hand-hold the audience through the whole thing, and I hate that. A lot of old comics would be narrating their own actions just to make sure the readers would understand: “He shot me right in the chest! Luckily my super intangibility powers let that bullet pass harmlessly through me” or whatever, and it was patronizing and really irritating. Trust your readers to pick up on stuff without having to guide us through it, and in the case of “easter egg” sort of things like the stealth characters, keep it simple and hidden like it ought to be.
You ever see the movie Shrek? And The Sixth Sense? Those two each have a scene where you read it two distinct ways, and it completely changes your understanding of the words being used. Shrek has you learn immediately that the character, not the audience, is misunderstanding the interaction. The Sixth Sense, on the other hand, lets you sit through that scene thinking all signs point to XYZ, and then once you realize the twist ending you revisit that scene and think holy cow, it’s not XYZ, it’s all GVQ! That moment of realization is worth all the world, and your stealth guys manage to accomplish it.
Dave, I’m pretty sure that you meant Then’s name is pronounced like a HARD ‘th’ sound. A SOFT ‘th’ sound would be how the regular English word “then” is pronounced, I think.
I thought the same. And I’m glad it’s apparantly neither my misconception of hard and soft sounds nor me mispronouncing english.
Maybe the pronunciation of the name “Then” should be made a bit clearer; I’d suggest an apostrophe (“Th’en”), but the apostrophe seems to have already a meaning in the transcript of Tensei that is used here. (Maybe “Th^en” / “Th`en”, “Th°en” or similar?)
Also, although it’s clear from the context in these cases, I’d like the flashbacks to be denoted a bit clearer, like by the “dream style” by rounding the corners of the panels, or by using a cloudy border with a special background (like in https://selkiecomic.com/comic/selkie241/).
So is the cloak working on effecting visual processing instead of bending light?