Ditto.
some folks have hit the same point on how little we truly know of Sarnothi culture and it really does sound like Scar’s caught between wanting to shield Selkie/Nei Li from both his own mistakes and external threats.
the problem is you can only be so strong on your own, it feels like he’s been running on E for a long time.
Anyone else feeling like Scar has paid for his past?
Selkie’s mom condemned him to a life of incredible disability. Considering how vigorously healthy he was, she would have been kinder to kill him outright.
But despite what we’re learning now about his weakness, he’s willingly come to help people who probably still consider him a monster.
He would probably disagree, but it says a lot about his strength of character.
Probably one of the possible reasons WHY she didn’t just outright kill him.
#1. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So if killing him was the merciful thing, maiming him like this would be the REAL punishment she intended. (Scary, but plausible).
#2. She could still love him too damn much, so she just gave him a learning opportunity, not knowing how much damage it did to his pshyche.
#3. A combination of 2 and 1: She wanted him to learn a lesson, so killing wasn’t the option, and she just didn’t care how much it’d damage his psyche. (Less scary, more likely).
Agreed, and that’s one reason I took such an intense disliking to Ghien still holding that over him to force him into doing things he wasn’t sure were a good idea (tinker with Selkie’s locket in an attempt to ‘fix’ her Echo capabilities)
Yes, he was a monster — but the fact that he didn’t try to make excuses or euphemisms when he explained how he’d become “the old farmer”, just gave his reasons and acknowledged that they were bad ones and that they don’t excuse his actions goes a long way in mellowing me out towards him.
He’s not looking for forgiveness because he doesn’t believe he deserves any – especially since most of the people he wronged aren’t around to forgive him in the first place – and he’s not looking for redemption either.
He’s just getting through day to day trying to help where he can, and taking the fear, hate and distrust he keeps getting from everyone who knows him as his just due. And he’s been doing that for as long as Selkie has been alive.
That’s an interesting question in general. If we think of justice in terms of punishment then no, I don’t think anything can make up for the things we are told Scar has done, in our legal system he would probably get a life sentence.
If we were to think of justice in terms of rehabilitation, then that’s more complex. Scar does seem to have genuinely turned a new leaf and tries to do good within his capacity. I’m personaly not sure how to answer that, how many good deeds does it take up to make up for even a single murder?
Speaking as a Catholic, you’re asking the wrong question. It’s not ‘how many good deeds to a murder’, because good deeds can’t blot out sin by their own merits.
Rehabilitation seeks for the criminal (because sin is the wrong metric here) to become someone who is no longer a threat to the community. Scar has done so, and thus justice had been served.
There’s an argument to be made about restorative justice versus punitive justice, but ultimately this is one of those situations where systems break down.
Does what he’s been doing for the past decade or so undo what he did to earn the moniker ‘Old Farmer’? No.
Possibly nothing ever will, because this isn’t some kind of scoreboard or karma meter where you get +2 for fetching a kitten down from a tree and -2 for stealing your mom’s watch and it all balances out.
On the other hand, he’s no longer that person. He’s demonstrated that pretty conclusively, over a long period of time. Forcing him to keep paying for crimes his younger self committed at this point serves no constructive purpose.
But at the same time, while most of his victims are dead, the community still remembers his crimes; he’s the Boogeyman, the monster under the bed, the one who will come and take naughty children away. And that’s not unreasonable prejudice talking, that’s scars. They deserve justice too. So how do we balance this?
It would only work if there was a system that’s even more infallible than psychology. Because even psychologists can be fooled by the ‘I’m a redeemed man’ spiel. But if there would be a true read on whether or not you are redeemed enough to never do those things again, and fear (of being caught) is not the driving factor behind it, then restorative justice would actually work.
I don’t think that being sure about the redemption part is even necessary. I’ve been helping my nephew research a college essay regarding the prison system, and the data plays out this way:
1. Punitive systems create repeat offenders.
2. Rehabilitative systems create functional members of society.
If the aim is to prevent further harm to society, then the clear choice is a system like that of Norway or Germany, which prioritizes ensuring that the convict sees a way forward after they’ve served their time. The guards get better training, the prisoners are treated in a positive manner (avoiding “us vs. them” thinking), they’re provided with education and housing and job opportunities, and most of them don’t resort to the same kind of behavior that put them behind bars in the first place.
Meanwhile, the United States has the attitude that prison *should be* a horrible place, and also a place of slave labor, and they provide next to no resources for convicts to better their lives. The relationship between prisoners and guards is largely hostile, the environment is demoralizing, prisoners harm each other, and when you get out you’re left with next to nothing (including low job prospects since people commonly refuse to hire felons). Unsurprisingly, a lot of people are back behind bars within a couple years.
Forget whether the prisoners *deserve* to be forgiven or treated well: The American system hurts the innocent members of the communities by not providing a path to reintegration, and then funneling felons right back through an overloaded court system. We really need an overhaul.
Just so you’re aware, it’s been observed that people consistently underestimate the quality of life of disabled people, including folks with a different disability than they’re being asked about. Turns out your average person prefers being alive to being dead.
That being said, he’s clearly put a lot of work into not being a monster anymore. He regrets his past actions and in no way seeks to repeat them. I don’t personally use the term ‘paid for their past’ for philosophical reasons, but I do think it fits here.
You know Scar mentioned his right neck is weak and his collar makes me remember of an old Disney villain from the Aladdin TV called Caliph Kapok who wore a neck brace because his head would detach from his body.
Ummmm was that response directed to me because I didn’t say that Scar could be redeemed or anything I just said him wearing a neck brace and his neck being weak reminded me of an old Disney villain.
I think it was a response to a different comment, but it ended up under your comment through an error (a misclick) or the software is buggy and kicked the comment from the intended place over to yours.
Something, I hadn’t really thought of before, he tried to put a collar on Plo Quar to suppress her powers and turn her in for a reward. Now, as the consequences of his actions, Scar is probably going to have to wear a collar of his own for the rest of his life.
Todd being the saint, here.. compassionate in the face of anger that was directed at him just a moment ago. But then again, it’s something he grew up with.
Selkie doesn’t want Scar as her father, she has Todd… she just wants to know the truth of her heritage. Even if he’s a “monster” and has done bad things, he’s trying to atone for that now.
Maybe Sarnothi culture doesn’t do those things well.
Todd is right. Selkie is asking for herself, she deserves to be told the truth.
Scar is also right, her inclusion in Jin’sorai culture is based on her descendant from a Jin’sorai hero. Being Half Sar’teri alone is a complicating factor (as we learned from the Sarnothi father who told Todd at the park that his two-clans kid “wouldn’t have many friends” back in Sarnoth). Any acknowledgement that Selkie is the immediate descendant of Scar, specifically—a Sar’teri war criminal that contributed to decimating the Jin’Sori clan—raises the tension exponentially.
The current status quo of keeping Scar’s parentage a poorly-kept secret works in her favor, from a societal perspective, but not from a personal one.
So this argument is understandable from both sides, and the adults probably regret not communicating more with eachother before bringing Selkie here.
I think it’s also that Scar’s anger broke down his restraint enough for Scar to tell Todd how he’s really trying to look after Selkie. Todd understands where Scar’s anger is coming from now, so he’s more able to show compassion.
I wonder about how the reality of the scope of Scar’s actions are going to hit with Selkie given her “Dr Terrorhammer” supervillain fantasies. I know that is all play to her, but it sounds like a person close to her IS a real life supervillain. If nothing else, that has to make a person think.
It’s all fun to play at being a bad guy, until you see it for real.
i was asking that same question in the previous page. what if there is a *literal* connection there? again, we know virtually nothing of sarnoth culture, what if there IS a sort of light side/dark side thing going on too, and Scars…indiscretions…pose a threat to Selkie?
I wasn’t thinking quite so literally. More thinking that Selkie might feel very conflicted in her own heart about pretending to be evil when it get through to her that actual real people really to actual evil things. Things that are NOT fun or funny or just a silly power fantasy. Its one of those things you can kind of know, yet not REALLY know until it is someone close to you.
For example, I really struggle with movies with exciting, explosive car crashes – even though I know its all fake. I keep imagining real people in those cars. Yet I can watch other scary and violent things in movies and not feel that way. Its mostly because someone I love shared with me that they felt that way, and I started to feel guilty for making them feel bad and then to see it that way too, and boom – car crashes are terrible.
If there is a real Dr, Terrorhammer out there in the world, and he is someone close to Selkie, I can imagine her feeling really guilty about her fantasies and being afraid that they mean she is also a genuinely bad person who will actually do bad things.
well…in some ways..Yes. We know that Echoes manipulate energy. as i said previously, we know that Selkie sees herself as a spy-agent and as Dr. Terrorhammer. we know that Plo is seen as a hero, and that Scar has done some terrible things.
Selkie only knows her mom, and yes, while there ARE movies, lets amp it back to basically two halves of the same whole fighting against each other.as i have said, what IF the “sins of the father/parent” is a REAL and literal thing among the sarnothi? maybe we need an expert on the matter…POHL!!!!
oh. also, Steele Brightblade examplified this trope. Son of both Sturm and Kitiara. Dad’s example leads him to Loyalty and honor, Mom’s legacy leads him to a “might makes right” and “submit or die”. again, two halves of the whole at war within, eventually he has to tell them BOTH get bent as its HIS life and they’re both dead. (Sturm, well, at Kitiara’s hands and Her at Dalamars, though Undeath seems to have claimed her)
Darn it, now I want to hug him.
Ditto.
some folks have hit the same point on how little we truly know of Sarnothi culture and it really does sound like Scar’s caught between wanting to shield Selkie/Nei Li from both his own mistakes and external threats.
the problem is you can only be so strong on your own, it feels like he’s been running on E for a long time.
Anyone else feeling like Scar has paid for his past?
Selkie’s mom condemned him to a life of incredible disability. Considering how vigorously healthy he was, she would have been kinder to kill him outright.
But despite what we’re learning now about his weakness, he’s willingly come to help people who probably still consider him a monster.
He would probably disagree, but it says a lot about his strength of character.
Probably one of the possible reasons WHY she didn’t just outright kill him.
#1. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. So if killing him was the merciful thing, maiming him like this would be the REAL punishment she intended. (Scary, but plausible).
#2. She could still love him too damn much, so she just gave him a learning opportunity, not knowing how much damage it did to his pshyche.
#3. A combination of 2 and 1: She wanted him to learn a lesson, so killing wasn’t the option, and she just didn’t care how much it’d damage his psyche. (Less scary, more likely).
Agreed, and that’s one reason I took such an intense disliking to Ghien still holding that over him to force him into doing things he wasn’t sure were a good idea (tinker with Selkie’s locket in an attempt to ‘fix’ her Echo capabilities)
Yes, he was a monster — but the fact that he didn’t try to make excuses or euphemisms when he explained how he’d become “the old farmer”, just gave his reasons and acknowledged that they were bad ones and that they don’t excuse his actions goes a long way in mellowing me out towards him.
He’s not looking for forgiveness because he doesn’t believe he deserves any – especially since most of the people he wronged aren’t around to forgive him in the first place – and he’s not looking for redemption either.
He’s just getting through day to day trying to help where he can, and taking the fear, hate and distrust he keeps getting from everyone who knows him as his just due. And he’s been doing that for as long as Selkie has been alive.
That’s an interesting question in general. If we think of justice in terms of punishment then no, I don’t think anything can make up for the things we are told Scar has done, in our legal system he would probably get a life sentence.
If we were to think of justice in terms of rehabilitation, then that’s more complex. Scar does seem to have genuinely turned a new leaf and tries to do good within his capacity. I’m personaly not sure how to answer that, how many good deeds does it take up to make up for even a single murder?
Speaking as a Catholic, you’re asking the wrong question. It’s not ‘how many good deeds to a murder’, because good deeds can’t blot out sin by their own merits.
Rehabilitation seeks for the criminal (because sin is the wrong metric here) to become someone who is no longer a threat to the community. Scar has done so, and thus justice had been served.
There’s an argument to be made about restorative justice versus punitive justice, but ultimately this is one of those situations where systems break down.
Does what he’s been doing for the past decade or so undo what he did to earn the moniker ‘Old Farmer’? No.
Possibly nothing ever will, because this isn’t some kind of scoreboard or karma meter where you get +2 for fetching a kitten down from a tree and -2 for stealing your mom’s watch and it all balances out.
On the other hand, he’s no longer that person. He’s demonstrated that pretty conclusively, over a long period of time. Forcing him to keep paying for crimes his younger self committed at this point serves no constructive purpose.
But at the same time, while most of his victims are dead, the community still remembers his crimes; he’s the Boogeyman, the monster under the bed, the one who will come and take naughty children away. And that’s not unreasonable prejudice talking, that’s scars. They deserve justice too. So how do we balance this?
It would only work if there was a system that’s even more infallible than psychology. Because even psychologists can be fooled by the ‘I’m a redeemed man’ spiel. But if there would be a true read on whether or not you are redeemed enough to never do those things again, and fear (of being caught) is not the driving factor behind it, then restorative justice would actually work.
I don’t think that being sure about the redemption part is even necessary. I’ve been helping my nephew research a college essay regarding the prison system, and the data plays out this way:
1. Punitive systems create repeat offenders.
2. Rehabilitative systems create functional members of society.
If the aim is to prevent further harm to society, then the clear choice is a system like that of Norway or Germany, which prioritizes ensuring that the convict sees a way forward after they’ve served their time. The guards get better training, the prisoners are treated in a positive manner (avoiding “us vs. them” thinking), they’re provided with education and housing and job opportunities, and most of them don’t resort to the same kind of behavior that put them behind bars in the first place.
Meanwhile, the United States has the attitude that prison *should be* a horrible place, and also a place of slave labor, and they provide next to no resources for convicts to better their lives. The relationship between prisoners and guards is largely hostile, the environment is demoralizing, prisoners harm each other, and when you get out you’re left with next to nothing (including low job prospects since people commonly refuse to hire felons). Unsurprisingly, a lot of people are back behind bars within a couple years.
Forget whether the prisoners *deserve* to be forgiven or treated well: The American system hurts the innocent members of the communities by not providing a path to reintegration, and then funneling felons right back through an overloaded court system. We really need an overhaul.
Just so you’re aware, it’s been observed that people consistently underestimate the quality of life of disabled people, including folks with a different disability than they’re being asked about. Turns out your average person prefers being alive to being dead.
That being said, he’s clearly put a lot of work into not being a monster anymore. He regrets his past actions and in no way seeks to repeat them. I don’t personally use the term ‘paid for their past’ for philosophical reasons, but I do think it fits here.
You can pay for a dented car or a ruined carpet. There’s really no way to pay for war crimes as any kind of equal exchange.
You know Scar mentioned his right neck is weak and his collar makes me remember of an old Disney villain from the Aladdin TV called Caliph Kapok who wore a neck brace because his head would detach from his body.
No, I don’t. Not really. You can’t ever repay a debt like that besides working every single day until you die to do your best to make up for it.
A person can change but sometimes a crime is irredeemable.
Ummmm was that response directed to me because I didn’t say that Scar could be redeemed or anything I just said him wearing a neck brace and his neck being weak reminded me of an old Disney villain.
I think it was a response to a different comment, but it ended up under your comment through an error (a misclick) or the software is buggy and kicked the comment from the intended place over to yours.
Something, I hadn’t really thought of before, he tried to put a collar on Plo Quar to suppress her powers and turn her in for a reward. Now, as the consequences of his actions, Scar is probably going to have to wear a collar of his own for the rest of his life.
Poetic.
Todd being the saint, here.. compassionate in the face of anger that was directed at him just a moment ago. But then again, it’s something he grew up with.
Selkie doesn’t want Scar as her father, she has Todd… she just wants to know the truth of her heritage. Even if he’s a “monster” and has done bad things, he’s trying to atone for that now.
Maybe Sarnothi culture doesn’t do those things well.
I mean, they’re both right.
Todd is right. Selkie is asking for herself, she deserves to be told the truth.
Scar is also right, her inclusion in Jin’sorai culture is based on her descendant from a Jin’sorai hero. Being Half Sar’teri alone is a complicating factor (as we learned from the Sarnothi father who told Todd at the park that his two-clans kid “wouldn’t have many friends” back in Sarnoth). Any acknowledgement that Selkie is the immediate descendant of Scar, specifically—a Sar’teri war criminal that contributed to decimating the Jin’Sori clan—raises the tension exponentially.
The current status quo of keeping Scar’s parentage a poorly-kept secret works in her favor, from a societal perspective, but not from a personal one.
So this argument is understandable from both sides, and the adults probably regret not communicating more with eachother before bringing Selkie here.
I think it’s also that Scar’s anger broke down his restraint enough for Scar to tell Todd how he’s really trying to look after Selkie. Todd understands where Scar’s anger is coming from now, so he’s more able to show compassion.
If he needs support in water, he must be hurting on land.
Why is this giving PotatOS when she got upset about Caroline and shorted out?
I wonder about how the reality of the scope of Scar’s actions are going to hit with Selkie given her “Dr Terrorhammer” supervillain fantasies. I know that is all play to her, but it sounds like a person close to her IS a real life supervillain. If nothing else, that has to make a person think.
It’s all fun to play at being a bad guy, until you see it for real.
i was asking that same question in the previous page. what if there is a *literal* connection there? again, we know virtually nothing of sarnoth culture, what if there IS a sort of light side/dark side thing going on too, and Scars…indiscretions…pose a threat to Selkie?
You mean like… The Force ?
I wasn’t thinking quite so literally. More thinking that Selkie might feel very conflicted in her own heart about pretending to be evil when it get through to her that actual real people really to actual evil things. Things that are NOT fun or funny or just a silly power fantasy. Its one of those things you can kind of know, yet not REALLY know until it is someone close to you.
For example, I really struggle with movies with exciting, explosive car crashes – even though I know its all fake. I keep imagining real people in those cars. Yet I can watch other scary and violent things in movies and not feel that way. Its mostly because someone I love shared with me that they felt that way, and I started to feel guilty for making them feel bad and then to see it that way too, and boom – car crashes are terrible.
If there is a real Dr, Terrorhammer out there in the world, and he is someone close to Selkie, I can imagine her feeling really guilty about her fantasies and being afraid that they mean she is also a genuinely bad person who will actually do bad things.
well…in some ways..Yes. We know that Echoes manipulate energy. as i said previously, we know that Selkie sees herself as a spy-agent and as Dr. Terrorhammer. we know that Plo is seen as a hero, and that Scar has done some terrible things.
Selkie only knows her mom, and yes, while there ARE movies, lets amp it back to basically two halves of the same whole fighting against each other.as i have said, what IF the “sins of the father/parent” is a REAL and literal thing among the sarnothi? maybe we need an expert on the matter…POHL!!!!
oh. also, Steele Brightblade examplified this trope. Son of both Sturm and Kitiara. Dad’s example leads him to Loyalty and honor, Mom’s legacy leads him to a “might makes right” and “submit or die”. again, two halves of the whole at war within, eventually he has to tell them BOTH get bent as its HIS life and they’re both dead. (Sturm, well, at Kitiara’s hands and Her at Dalamars, though Undeath seems to have claimed her)
just wondering, have you read Good Omens?