Rrrrr
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October 26 2018: Trying this method of notification instead of throwing a wall-o-text up in the comic slot, hopefully people see this.
Anyway, due to uh… “Dave Issues”, today’s comic is delayed until tomorrow. So I’ll see everyone Saturday. Thank you.
Mrrgrrgrr
Yeah, the “You need to get to know them” argument doesn’t hold water when someone is actively being cruel directly towards you. Judging someone poorly of first impression of say appearance or that they are lour or seem to be into music or activities you don’t understand. yeah that’s a fair “You need to get to know them” But someone being an active aggressor and directly insulting you or picking fights is not someone you need to get to know there someone who needs to be dealt with by an authority sooner rather then later.
Calling Selkie a drama queen was justified, she’s been proving his point ever since. This isn’t bullying, just two snarky kids bickering.
I’d say that when your first encounter with someone is them being a jerk, you’re under no obligation to learn more about them to figure out of they’re not a jerk “once you get to know them.”
That said, I have befriended two trolls. One of them is a college friend who’s part of my circle of friends, and when I first met him I couldn’t stand him. We had enough spats that my best friend had to break us up and tell me to knock it off (deservedly). But eventually, I did find out that the troll was well versed in classical literature, and we actually hit it off, and I’ve had some great conversations with him (even though, over the years, it seems like the rest of our friends — the ones who’ve known him a lot longer than I have — have had their fill of him, and are glad he only stops by once in a blue moon).
The other troll is the most infamous troll on a site called Not Always Right: Matt Westwood. When the site switched to Disqus (a site I will never have an account with), thus ousting me from the comments section, I decided that he was the only person I honestly wished to continue interacting with, so I hunted him down on Facebook. We’ve had some great conversations, and, again, he’s one of the more intelligent and well read people I know.
What’s funny is that Westwood is the gold standard by which other trolls on NAR are measured. I have watched multiple conversations play out to that effect, and once got to tell a new troll that he needed to up his game if he was ever going to be as interesting as Matt Westwood ^_^
So, I know firsthand — and not from media — that people who are jerks (not just seem to be jerks, but are in fact jerks) can also be worth knowing. It depends on your tolerance level, and whether their jerkiness directly impacts your interactions with them or not.
But there’s also the media. Stardew Valley, for example: a good chunk of the cast is buried under some level of “you have to get to know them.” The homeless guy living up on the mountain in a tent? Tells you he doesn’t want friends. The JojaMart employee? Rude, annoying, and (it turns out) a suicidal alcoholic. The other major alcoholic won’t even talk to you when she’s drinking, sometimes. There’s a stuck-up girl who insults you in your first conversation with her. There’s a bitter blacksmith who assumes a lot of negative things about you. The grocer’s daughter can go off on you just because she’s having a bad day. The little girl in town won’t talk to you until you’ve talked at her a couple times, and then just says you’re a stranger and she doesn’t know you (sensible, but still off-putting). Similar with the timid schoolteacher gal, who stays silent or makes awkward small-talk and then flees. The old guy in a wheelchair is also bitter toward life, and his grandson the jock actually has a cut scene (once you get to know him) where he apologizes for being such a jerk when you first met. The goth (emo?) teen brushes you off when you see him at the docks at night, with a “This place is nicer by yourself… don’t you think?” kinda line. And his friend can be so busy skateboarding that he won’t even talk to you, either.
If you take your first meeting as the full understanding of their character, you won’t ever learn why they’re like that or what they’re like once they have some sort of loyal friend. But the only characters not worth befriending are the ones you physically can’t befriend: the JojaMart representative (the villain of the game), his employee who never speaks (man, I wish I could befriend her, poor girl), and the museum employee who only cares about museum artifacts and nothing else.
Is it possible you can get off on the wrong foot with someone but later things can work out differently through various circumstances? Sure, absolutely. Nobody is perfect, people have bad days, people can change, etc.
But, and this is a very important but, if someone is behaving poorly you are under no obligation to put up with their abuse or try to “get to know them better”. There is nothing wrong with deciding it’s not worth your own time and well being if they are going to persist in being rude and insulting. Further the argument that “well he’s not a jerk to ME so that means he’s actually a good person if you get to know him”, is, in my opinion, wrong. Being not a monster to some people isn’t a defense for being one to others. Bullies have friends whom they don’t bully, great, but that’s no comfort to the people they do bully. And I would argue that putting up with jerks/being friends with them because they just don’t bully you, isn’t a great idea unless you call them out on their behavior. Otherwise it just empowers them to continue doing so.
Selfie is right, from the start Tehk has absolutely behaved like a jerk. Now, he’s also a kid whose been through enormous trauma so I don’t think that means he’s histories greatest monster and he will hopefully grow and make better choices as the comic moves forward. I also believe in forgiveness IF an effort is made to correct ones bad behavior. But Selkie has plenty of reason to view him currently as a jerk. Only time will tell if that changes.
>if someone is behaving poorly you are under no obligation to put up with their abuse or try to “get to know them better”.
That’s… literally what I said in my first paragraph?
And I did note that both the trolls I know are jerks, as a classification, regardless of the way they treat me now that I’ve gotten to know them. That I can get along with them and enjoy time with them does not make them less of a jerk, nor does it make them “a good person who often acts like a jerk.”
You made a statement in your opening paragraph and then went on to defend people who you openly admit are still jerks, it rather undermines your point.
As far as Tehk:
I’m glad you’re nice.
Who said I wasn’t?
No one said that!
Well, they should have! I rule with iron webs.
Oh, great. You’re one of THOSE Jin’Sorai.
Hey! What’s wrong with Jin’Sorai?
Besides being total drama queens?
Selkie made what I assume was a joke, claiming that people *should* say she’s not nice. She asserted domination.
This may be a case where the tone does not translate well. We’ve got people whose bodies are literally made to harm other people, and who have some major wars going on right now; asserting dominance may not sound like a joke to people raised in that environment.
It might also be that Selkie has internalized human joke patterns (in terms of cadence, for example), and humor is one of the things that’s difficult for non-native speakers to pick up on.
So if Tehk started off thinking that *Selkie* was the one being an unreasonable jerk, I could see his point of view. And I do cut him leeway for being shoved into a situation he doesn’t want, like the way I might grant more leeway to a foster kid who’s just been ripped away from his home. Like Amanda, putting up defenses to try to keep from being hurt even worse.
To me, the two of them (Selkie and Tehk) seemed to play off each other as both bristly, neither one backing down or trying to take the higher road. I don’t see either one as significantly worse than the other in that initial interaction (and by the time they hit the parents scene, their impression of each other is kinda set).
In fact, I wonder if the anti-Tehk sentiment isn’t less about his actual behavior and more about this being Selkie’s story. Because Selkie is every bit as prickly, for similar reasons. Recall how quickly she verbally attacked Todd when she first met him, over a perceived insult, and how he had to carefully dismantle her assumptions to be able to get along with her?
Except the initial part of that exchange wasn’t with Tehk, it was with Te Fahn. Tehk inserted himself in a conversation that had nothing to do with him for the sole purpose of insulting Selkie. This latest incident started with him accusing her of spying (she wasn’t) and of bullying him (she wasn’t). He has twice instigated hostility towards Selkie without provocation. He’s being a complete jerk.
Again, he’s a kid and he’s been through some serious stuff so it may be explainable, but it doesn’t mean he’s not also being a jerk.
If time was unlimited, maybe it’s worth a try. However, we have to make risk assessments based on first impressions. Why does Tehk deserve all the effort over anyone else when we strip out our partially omnicious POV?
This is why first impressions are so critical. There are 7ish billion people out in the world I don’t know yet, so if someone comes off hostile, why dig deeper into that one when there are plenty of others to befriend?
Is that disembodied voice George speaking or is that Tehk?
Sai-Fen really missed the boat coming in to class, she should have waved and been all, “Hi, Tehk!” But instead of “Hi, Tehk,” we get low key!
It’s probably for the best….
George — there’s a tiny speech bubble pointing to his face.
In frame two, George is to the -right- of Selkie, the speech bubble points left.
So I Auto-assumed it wasnt Geo., thanks for letting me know. Disembodied speech bubble was ambiguous!
It’s Tehk, off-screen in that panel.
Yeahhh, I don’t see this as him being a jerk… I think this is two things combined.
First, he probably is a bit sensitive right now and deals with it aggressively, whether that’s due to the move and new environment, other factors, or both remains to be seen.
Second, he seems specifically to have it out for Selkie to the point of ignoring everything else and targeting her… I see that as pulling the pigtails of the girl he likes… except he doesn’t realize that he is doing that… or that he even likes her… and at this stage I wouldn’t even say “Like” as curious and fascinated.
Selkie to him is something familiar yet new, a good focus for him to deal with this confusing time.
I could be way off, but Dave is good at writing his characters with depth and thats how it reads to me. Only time will tell.
Acting out aggressively and focusing your attention on someone in impolite ways are being a jerk.
Also, I think it’s a really bad idea to write off inappropriate behavior, such as pulling a girls hair, as just “oh it’s because he likes you”. Harassment is harassment, and personally I think it’s very important we not let
Down more generations of girls by writing off that kind of behavior and teaching them violence is a sign of affection.
Thank you. I’ve suffered horrible harassment and even physical attacks as a child, and had it written off as “oh he probably is doing it to show he likes you.” I despise that attitude because I have been hurt due to it.
Tehk is a traumatized kid. But he is still being a jerk and deliberately targeting Selkie, who has already been bullied consistently and persistently and now has to be family with her main tormentor who still gives her a hard time on the sly and has never, ever, been properly brought to task for her behavior. Enduring trauma does not give you license to freely dish it out to others.
I agree with Dave’s ability to write layered, nuanced, and engaging characters.
The “he hurts you because he likes you” trope needs to die in a fire, right alongside “boys will be boys” used to excuse behavior that is harmful to others. The more we prime people to understand “asshole” to mean “affection,” the more we set up vulnerable people to accept abusive relationships (“he wouldn’t hit me if he didn’t care about me!”).
As for Tehk targeting Selkie… could be more like targeting the, what’s the term, Quisler? The traitor who should be from your group but has instead integrated into the enemy group. If he’s seeing all humans as outsider enemies right now, and forced against his will to integrate, then he could see Selkie as someone who can’t be trusted and should be fought on ideological grounds.
He might also have some actual negative viewpoints about her tribal group, things he’ll need to unlearn. Remember, their tribal groups were largely insular. Consider if you were raised to think that all Mexicans were lazy, and all Asians good with math, and all Russians were rude and unsanitary, and all Jews were misers — and this was the first time you’d ever met anyone who fell under one of those groups, so you judged them based on the only information you have at the time.
Honestly, the same parents teaching us to mistrust Jews are the ones who taught us that this animal is a Dog and that other one is a Dog even though they don’t look a bit alike, but that other similar animal is a Sheep even though it looks more like the first Dog than the chihuahua does. Why wouldn’t we start with the assumption that they’re passing on correct information to us? Kids don’t know from biases.
Whoa whoa whoa
I am not condoning violence against women or the whole “boys will be boys” thing. It is not cool and we should teach kids better.
BUT, we are expecting an awful lot from children who do not have well formed social selfs created yet. I am in NO WAY excusing this. I am just saying it happens. Though we collectively as a people need to recognize this, try and gently teach correct behavior, and not load these children up with our own baggage.
Tehk is being a bit mean… Selkie isn’t being much better though we forgive her because she is the MC, and for other reasons. I am not forgiving or excusing Tehk’s behavior any more than I am Selkie’s. I am trying to look at where it is coming from rather then just labeling Tehk as a Jerk. Labels of any kind are wrong.
And yes I used the metaphor of “pull the hair of the girl you like” but that is just it, a metaphor. It is very common for both genders when interacting with both genders, to behave inappropriately for attention because they don’t know a better way. It may not be right but denying it is no different then people who deny evolution just because they don’t like it.
Quisling. That’s the word you were looking for.
Selkie: *insert angry murloc noises*
So this only on a loop 😀 I can totally see her doing that.
https://youtu.be/qMPpnCvCZvw
Yep those two are going to date in high school.
Also, rackafracka
As my sister likes to say: Pot! Kettle! Look it up!
Main reason he’s calling Selkie a drama queen is because what she’s complaining about is either A: “normal” for him or B: unbelievable.
Tehk initially used “Drama Queens” in a racist remark against Selkie.
mrrgrrgrr!
Since I found this simple rule for social interactions my life has been made easy. I now know how to react to people every time. It’s also fun to follow. https://www.thoughtco.com/the-tit-for-tat-game-theory-strategy-1147269
Wow, that is pretty much my philosophy on dealing with strangers, didn’t know it had a name.
I dunno, they’re still both being brats but I think Selkie’s being the slightly bigger brat and, yes, a drama queen. Of course Tehk should’ve kept his mouth shut in that last panel and let it go but both he and Selkie seem like the type that have to have the last word.
Stand up to insults and harassment is not being a drama queen. One of the few ways to deal with harassment is to make it harder for those onlooking to ignore whats going on. standing up and screaming at the person harassing you is the correct move specifically because it dose bother other around forces them to act on the situation. They have to actually address it and not wave it off ‘as children being rowdy’ because hey that is what happened to Selkie every time she was insulted and bullied, she was told to calm down and ignore it… until a situation escalated and sent her to the hospital. No she should scream she should point out whats going on and make sure every person in that room knows it because being silent only make things easier for the abuser.
Yeah, but to blunt I don’t see Tehk as an abuser. What’s he actually done besides call her a drama queen in response to her being ridiculous? A poster further up had a good point that Selkie’s ‘rule with iron webs’ comment was almost certainly just her joking around and that the humor probably didn’t translate well – Te Fahn was worried she’d upset Selkie and Tehk may have thought she was being legit serious there. So I can chalk that initial little interaction up to a genuine misunderstanding – Selkie was being silly but Tehk took it the wrong way. That sort of thing happens.
But the rest? The interaction outside the classroom was dumb because while it’s not spying if you’re having a conversation *right there* in front of other people, I think Tehk still had a point because she was obviously translating for Todd who wanted to know what was being said.
And this here? I still think Tehk should’ve kept his mouth shut and let it go but considering that Selkie started going on about having to take a quiz being Tehk’s fault, I honestly can’t blame his reaction because I had a (amused) but similarly eye-rolling response of, “Really, Selkie?”
Now if Tehk starts deliberately going out of his way to antagonize Selkie and mess with her like Amanda did, I’ll change my tune accordingly.
We’d all rather see Pants again.
Selkie’s not really wrong here. He is a jerk. And she should be allowed to feel how she feels. Tehk needs to stop with his rudeness.
Though that might be Amanda. She kinda feels the same about Selkie sometimes.
Teacher here. Selkie is being the aggressor and needs to back off.
I hope that speech class Todd suggested, can help these kids settle some of their differences.
Also please don’t claim “he does (insert thing) because he likes you.” It is absolute bull huey.
It absolutely is a thing, but for like – kindergardeners. Kids this old already know better.