What’s interesting is that they seem fully integrated into the us systems and lifestyle, he could just go screw all that, but doesn’t – likely because the very same “expectations” being drilled into him.
Unless the person really hates their home culture, immigrants generally don’t fully integrate, especially adults. They tend to keep most of their cultural norms and behaviors in the host nation. This is why ethnic enclaves spring up among immigrant communities. The kinds born in the new nation pick up the local customs.
Ethnic enclaves usually thin out and vanish if there isn’t continued immigration from that nation. In terms of the Selkie-verse, all those Sarnothi refugees will likely permanently keep most of their beliefs and prejudices. The kids, like Pohl’s, will be the ones acting more like American humans and there will unlikely be another mass migration to reinforce old cultural norms. Pohl may have developed some ability to thrive in his adoptive society, but he will always be a citizen of Sarnoth in his core. Pohl’s grandkids, though, will probably laugh at his outdated beliefs.
Most cultural and/or religious doctrine has its good and its bad. Preformed in good faith most are not bad systems but ultimately fail when put against the simple fact that the kind of mentality required for one to gain authority and power tend to also have mentality that lead to dictatorship and acting on words rather then spirit of laws or even outright changing laws and doctrine to suit there belief system. Ideologies that spout that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or that ones value is measured in there usefulness to a collective ALWAYS lead to the decline of the meany or said collective. Because the moment any life is measured for worth against another it is objectified and capable of being spent with impunity.
Thank you for the best argument against socialism there is. Kiten. The state versus the Individual is one of the GREAT philosophical debates of the 19th and 20th centuries and is FAR more important now especially in the US at this time. For some of the better works on that I suggest Max Weber, William Henery Chamberlain (regardless of your disagreements with her) Rand, and Modern Philosophers such as Heinlein.
I intended my statement was a call for balance between both systems. I don’t believe in telling a kid that there worth is found in ether their ability to earn money or how they can be useful to others. However I’m very much for things like tax funded health care and schools. Variety is the key to a healthy life and I think that is true of social structures as well. We should be using elements from any and all systems to find a balanced method, not lording one system as a perfect solution and treating it’s methods like a religion (such as it has been in both communist and capitalist societies). Telling a little boy his worth is found in how much money he has is just as bad as telling him he’s only valuable if he can actively contribute to a community or that his value is ultimately not held by himself. Yes, giving and working to help people is a good thing; however it becomes questionable when it’s an enforced system, because it stops being “helping your community and fellow man” and starts being “free labour to the authority system using moral doctrine” as their excuse. On the same line reaping the rewards of you hard work is a positive thing and amassing person wealth can be a boon to the society, but your methods and work practices do need to be regulated to prevent exploitation and harm. And, yes, taxes to pay for community goods like schools is a positive thing that happens in all systems, again there just needs to be regulation on how said tax is spent. You need to balance all these things, not espouse on or the other method is evil or the solution if people would just let it work as intended. Because ultimately: we are a society not an economy and society will adapt, change, and grow and our systems of law, education, social care, and finance all have to do the same.
regardless Your argument is the primary argument of Individual versus state, Weber, Chaimberlain, Heinlein (yes RAH) Rand. all are the champions of said primacy of the individual.
Why is this even a question? Both are required. Trying to go either 100% individualism or 100% state control always leads to terrible results, as in, far too many people dying who didn’t have to. The only way to have a liveable society is to strike a balance.
There’s a third many-faceted force that isn’t mentioned here, too. Individuals who would separately be powerless can achieve some power by banding together in non-state organizations. Unions, corporations, advocacy groups from the NRA to Black Lives Matter, all jostle each other for position.
Seeing the topic as a simple either/or does not match reality.
i´m getting a definite ‘guilty’ vibe from pohl here….guess he feels bad about ‘abandoning’ his people in their time of need by leaving, for putting the safety of his family above his public duty as an echo. i wonder what happened to make him take such a drastic step – did the ar´teri threaten his wife+son to make him work for them?
I could be wrong but I think he and his wife are of different clans (they have slightly different skin tones but that could be irreverent and i cant find the page where Sai Fen talks about her clan), so perhaps he left because inter-race partnerships were something becoming increasingly dangerous as tensions arose or were not allowed all together.
For all we know the expectation placed on Pohl was that he leave the three-dimensional world and go live on the dry and integrate with the humans.
It may be that one good side of this is that two Sarnothi who ended up on different sides fighting, one of them being hideously injured, may be able to like and admire each other afterwards because they can ascribe it to what their clan required them to do.
Which is not to say that I am in favour of conformity and obedience to authority. Obedience to authority can be a very bad thing indeed. Hitler Youth were trained to raise a puppy, train it, and then kill it so that they would be capable of sacrificing for the fatherland. But obedience to authority is also why we have so few traffic accidents considering the speed and density the hurtling fiberglass and metal machines that fill our streets achieve.
He also had to permanently cripple his swimming ability to enhance his surgical ability. His hand webs were removed.
It could even go further than that. What if he didn’t personally want or need to leave Sarnoth, but his community had decided to defect to the colony and help the humans? They needed echos. Saying no probably wasn’t echan an option, in his mind.
So, I wonder what Pohl gave up.
I feel bad for Pophl, I mean he must have done a lot of good for his home only to have to go from it and maybe never return.
And have everything he and his wife ever believed to be called into question.
What’s interesting is that they seem fully integrated into the us systems and lifestyle, he could just go screw all that, but doesn’t – likely because the very same “expectations” being drilled into him.
Unless the person really hates their home culture, immigrants generally don’t fully integrate, especially adults. They tend to keep most of their cultural norms and behaviors in the host nation. This is why ethnic enclaves spring up among immigrant communities. The kinds born in the new nation pick up the local customs.
Ethnic enclaves usually thin out and vanish if there isn’t continued immigration from that nation. In terms of the Selkie-verse, all those Sarnothi refugees will likely permanently keep most of their beliefs and prejudices. The kids, like Pohl’s, will be the ones acting more like American humans and there will unlikely be another mass migration to reinforce old cultural norms. Pohl may have developed some ability to thrive in his adoptive society, but he will always be a citizen of Sarnoth in his core. Pohl’s grandkids, though, will probably laugh at his outdated beliefs.
Most cultural and/or religious doctrine has its good and its bad. Preformed in good faith most are not bad systems but ultimately fail when put against the simple fact that the kind of mentality required for one to gain authority and power tend to also have mentality that lead to dictatorship and acting on words rather then spirit of laws or even outright changing laws and doctrine to suit there belief system. Ideologies that spout that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or that ones value is measured in there usefulness to a collective ALWAYS lead to the decline of the meany or said collective. Because the moment any life is measured for worth against another it is objectified and capable of being spent with impunity.
Thank you for the best argument against socialism there is. Kiten. The state versus the Individual is one of the GREAT philosophical debates of the 19th and 20th centuries and is FAR more important now especially in the US at this time. For some of the better works on that I suggest Max Weber, William Henery Chamberlain (regardless of your disagreements with her) Rand, and Modern Philosophers such as Heinlein.
I intended my statement was a call for balance between both systems. I don’t believe in telling a kid that there worth is found in ether their ability to earn money or how they can be useful to others. However I’m very much for things like tax funded health care and schools. Variety is the key to a healthy life and I think that is true of social structures as well. We should be using elements from any and all systems to find a balanced method, not lording one system as a perfect solution and treating it’s methods like a religion (such as it has been in both communist and capitalist societies). Telling a little boy his worth is found in how much money he has is just as bad as telling him he’s only valuable if he can actively contribute to a community or that his value is ultimately not held by himself. Yes, giving and working to help people is a good thing; however it becomes questionable when it’s an enforced system, because it stops being “helping your community and fellow man” and starts being “free labour to the authority system using moral doctrine” as their excuse. On the same line reaping the rewards of you hard work is a positive thing and amassing person wealth can be a boon to the society, but your methods and work practices do need to be regulated to prevent exploitation and harm. And, yes, taxes to pay for community goods like schools is a positive thing that happens in all systems, again there just needs to be regulation on how said tax is spent. You need to balance all these things, not espouse on or the other method is evil or the solution if people would just let it work as intended. Because ultimately: we are a society not an economy and society will adapt, change, and grow and our systems of law, education, social care, and finance all have to do the same.
hmmm my comment didn’t show (strange)
regardless Your argument is the primary argument of Individual versus state, Weber, Chaimberlain, Heinlein (yes RAH) Rand. all are the champions of said primacy of the individual.
Why is this even a question? Both are required. Trying to go either 100% individualism or 100% state control always leads to terrible results, as in, far too many people dying who didn’t have to. The only way to have a liveable society is to strike a balance.
There’s a third many-faceted force that isn’t mentioned here, too. Individuals who would separately be powerless can achieve some power by banding together in non-state organizations. Unions, corporations, advocacy groups from the NRA to Black Lives Matter, all jostle each other for position.
Seeing the topic as a simple either/or does not match reality.
This.
I am a little long winded but this is a good summary.
i´m getting a definite ‘guilty’ vibe from pohl here….guess he feels bad about ‘abandoning’ his people in their time of need by leaving, for putting the safety of his family above his public duty as an echo. i wonder what happened to make him take such a drastic step – did the ar´teri threaten his wife+son to make him work for them?
I could be wrong but I think he and his wife are of different clans (they have slightly different skin tones but that could be irreverent and i cant find the page where Sai Fen talks about her clan), so perhaps he left because inter-race partnerships were something becoming increasingly dangerous as tensions arose or were not allowed all together.
No, in #401 Pohl said they’re both Tel’Dora.
Expectations placed on people without consent (and, as it’s universal/genetic, it seems doubtful it’s ever a choice…) are usually sorta toxic…
His defense of it, given his development, hints at a fascinating backstory.
That’s a hell of a character jump in just a few pages. And excellent writing, thus~
For all we know the expectation placed on Pohl was that he leave the three-dimensional world and go live on the dry and integrate with the humans.
It may be that one good side of this is that two Sarnothi who ended up on different sides fighting, one of them being hideously injured, may be able to like and admire each other afterwards because they can ascribe it to what their clan required them to do.
Which is not to say that I am in favour of conformity and obedience to authority. Obedience to authority can be a very bad thing indeed. Hitler Youth were trained to raise a puppy, train it, and then kill it so that they would be capable of sacrificing for the fatherland. But obedience to authority is also why we have so few traffic accidents considering the speed and density the hurtling fiberglass and metal machines that fill our streets achieve.
He also had to permanently cripple his swimming ability to enhance his surgical ability. His hand webs were removed.
It could even go further than that. What if he didn’t personally want or need to leave Sarnoth, but his community had decided to defect to the colony and help the humans? They needed echos. Saying no probably wasn’t echan an option, in his mind.
Somehow, I had completely missed his had webs being removed. He’s looking at his hand, isn’t he, when he says “Even sacrificing things, if needed.”
Thanks for pointing that out. Did you just spot it, or is there somewhere in the comic it’s addressed, and I missed it?
I don’t know if it’s been mentioned in-comic, but it was in the reader comments of #633.
She’s expecting laser beams and he means construction beams, I bet.
She’s beaming with excitement!