Yeah, like it’s literally part of Avery’s job to be a hardass about this stuff because it’s meant to protect humans and sarnothi alike – it’s not for him doing it for kicks or because he just wants to be an asshole to people.
That said, Avery and his family have also somewhat established themselves as actual personal friends/acquaintances of Todd & Selkie. I think this is good, because it enables both family units to learn more about each other as regular people and build trust, but also bad because I think it’s blurred the lines a bit and has probably induced Todd to relax more than he should about information breaches like this. I think that after today, though, Todd will be taking things a lot more seriously.
Also, while I definitely do get the implication here that Selkie could get taken away, I don’t really read Avery’s words as an outright threat but a warning. Remember, he’s got superiors that he has to report to and if he’s forced to report that information is getting leaked and that Todd isn’t bringing it to his attention like he should, it’s those superiors who could make the call to take Selkie away. So Avery’s basically saying, “Dude, you have GOT to tell me about this stuff when it happens because otherwise I have to report that you haven’t and that’s NOT GOOD if you want to keep custody of your adopted daughter. Please, for the love of Pete, help me to help you!”
Yeah I saw that fear of losing Selkie in Todd’s eyes too X_X;
I hope things will improve and hopefully maybe another family time for both families to come together and have their view on things that can be discussed, especially with the recent things happening.
I suspect that Avery doesn’t have a plan or a procedure for someone like Todd in the first place. His agency is the kind of place where you’re hiring from people who already have security clearances and how this sort of thing works.
He doesn’t HAVE a SOP or a frame of reference for what he needs to do for civilians because its never been a factor until now. And thus he overlooks things, because it didn’t occur to him that there needed to be anything more said that what he had.
Someone else pointed out that it might not be Avery threatening to take her away, but warning Todd that his supervisors could decide to take her away. It might well not be on him.
Yeah, the level of trust has to go both ways. Avery has to trust Todd but Todd has to also trust Avery. Trusting that Avery won’t just yank the kids away if something happens. If there is no trust, things get hidden because the threat of what might happen if you do tell is too great. They are also literally kids with super powers in an era of technology where there are cameras and recording devices everywhere. They are also kids, and probably do not understand the meaning of that, especially in the moment. The amount of adults that record themselves doing crimes and then post it online shows me that even some adults don’t understand, and they have the more developed brain. The government might be better off giving the kids something like anti-paparazzi clothes or stuff that disrupts signals when aimed their way than just telling the kids to keep quiet. Just seems like an exercise in futility.
Well to be fair to Todd he didn’t exactly have the opportunity to get a hold of Avery until then. Though if I were just put into his position I’d go straight to Theo and lay it on the table that the way he approached Avery about the pew pew has just put ALL of them at risk.
Well if you look back about the time that happened Avery was hands full with a different set of new arrivals. Todd being the considerate person he was had a decision to make.
Todds shown he knows to immediatly inform when its not a close family member though, like calling Avery right as hes was going to sleep to update him about Scar. The issue isnt Todd being too considerate, its that he didnt want to get his parents involved when at this point he knows the rules and no longer has the uninformed civilian excuse. Its going to be alot harder for Avery to argue Todd isnt a future risk after this one.
A lot of discussion here on who is in the wrong… Both screwed up, Todd for not taking this seriously and keeping secrets, Avery for not taking this seriously enough and keeping secrets. But before you knee jerk react about Avery’s threat, I see it as Avery acting extreme because of shock and surprise. Sort of like how you can over react when scared and realize you did something you aren’t proud of later.
The real answer to who is wrong is: the government, for keeping secrets.
What would the actual harm be if the public learns about the existence of Echoes? Everyone already knows the sarnothi have lasers of some sort, it was on the news. Also, this is the United States, one of the most gun-happy countries in the world where normal people can already legally carry lethal weapons anyway.
The government also tried to keep the existence of sarnothi as a whole secret (with the stupid and insulting “it’s just a skin condition!” excuse) until the very last moment, only reluctantly admitting their existence when it had become impossible to deny. Which, when it happened, did not cause widespread panic or catastrophe despite how poorly the reveal was handled, proving that the secrecy was never necessary from the beginning.
This isn’t legitimate military secrets that could be dangerous in the wrong hands. This is just keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.
Both Todd and Avery are merely guilty of trying to make the best of a bad situation, because the idiots in charge will punish them if they attempt to act reasonably.
The thing is, in any world, there will always be bad people who will use anyone and anything with power to get what they want. There will be mad scientists who want to do experiments, and see how far Echo powers will go; maybe for mind control or maybe enough power for a nuclear bomb.
The government has to consider the millions of types of people: the overly kind, the seemingly kind but manipulative, the rich and powerful who buy their way in the world, and/or alien conspirators.
I know this may not be as different as USA with their lax gun laws, but this is considered an “unknown” case, and what isn’t know could be a drastic difference between mass hysterics and simply not knowing.
Not to mention that government officials and politicians will argue whether or not Sarnothi are considered citizens of USA, or even considered protected like all other humans in the country.
Generally speaking from my point of view and finding the possible reasons why.
If you want to combat criminal misuse of Echo powers, it’s better if the public does know what Echo powers are, so witnesses who see them misused will understand what they’re seeing and be able to make a credible report to the police without sounding crazy.
That applies both to the Echoes themselves committing crimes, and to other people kidnapping Echoes. Either way, you can’t meaningfully report it if Echoes officially don’t exist.
Heavily disagree with the notion that just coming clean with all the detail is the obvious and only correct decision. The thing is, once a secret is out in the public, there’s no way to pull it back if it winds up causing problems. And humanity does not have the best track record when it comes to dealing with “us vs. them” issues, especially when weapons are involved, especially when people get scared, especially when the unknown becomes more real than the people right in front of you.
See, for example, the mob killing a Sikh right after 9/11, because he wore a turban and the mob was angry at people associated with turbans.
Humanity would not react well to the sudden reveal of Magic Powers Existing, let alone ones only in the hands of Them, and to pretend otherwise is overly idealistic. There’s a lot of discussion to be had before taking such a drastic and irreversible step.
Though hey, there’s another comic exploring this very concept! El Goonish Shive has recently seen a giant shift in public awareness of magic, and they explore — in great detail — the pros and cons of this Reveal. I’ve linked the pertinent section under my name here. They discuss how humanity reacts, but also how the revelation itself is impossible to keep under wraps for long in the modern era, so they are indeed forced to let the reveal happen faster than they otherwise would… and to deal with the spillover effects.
I believe the other part of EGS I’m thinking of is when Diane first comes to a party at Tedd’s house, and Tedd says something about making magic available to everyone, and Diane pretty much calls him a fool and lays out exactly why. Of course, that’s about giving powers to everyone, rather than revealing them to everyone, but it’s worth considering that kind of fallout as well.
And I say all that as a Neurodivergent person who hates hates HATES the amount of “hide what you know, don’t tell the truth, keep things secret” that we have to perform on a daily basis just to get along in human society. Tact is hard, and social lying annoys me, but there are reasons for people to be careful about what kind of information gets spread when.
I don’t think the threat is to take Selkie but more like… no more inside information, no trips to the colony? Todd had been privy to information about the “refugee” crisis and access that most people wouldn’t have.
Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, Avery not being told about Grampa is so “bad” while there are pew pew fire fights for everybody to see… Cat is out of the bag Avery…
While recognizing all that is said hear, I’d also like to repeat what I’ve said before: That Avery and his superiors HAVE to start preparing for the time when all of this becomes pulic knowledge – because that IS a ‘when’, not an ‘if’, and the latest developments just serve to confirm that
I kinda feel for Avery on this one. I know it’s his job, but he really trusted Todd on this. I can’t blame the both of them.
Yeah, like it’s literally part of Avery’s job to be a hardass about this stuff because it’s meant to protect humans and sarnothi alike – it’s not for him doing it for kicks or because he just wants to be an asshole to people.
That said, Avery and his family have also somewhat established themselves as actual personal friends/acquaintances of Todd & Selkie. I think this is good, because it enables both family units to learn more about each other as regular people and build trust, but also bad because I think it’s blurred the lines a bit and has probably induced Todd to relax more than he should about information breaches like this. I think that after today, though, Todd will be taking things a lot more seriously.
Also, while I definitely do get the implication here that Selkie could get taken away, I don’t really read Avery’s words as an outright threat but a warning. Remember, he’s got superiors that he has to report to and if he’s forced to report that information is getting leaked and that Todd isn’t bringing it to his attention like he should, it’s those superiors who could make the call to take Selkie away. So Avery’s basically saying, “Dude, you have GOT to tell me about this stuff when it happens because otherwise I have to report that you haven’t and that’s NOT GOOD if you want to keep custody of your adopted daughter. Please, for the love of Pete, help me to help you!”
Yeah I saw that fear of losing Selkie in Todd’s eyes too X_X;
I hope things will improve and hopefully maybe another family time for both families to come together and have their view on things that can be discussed, especially with the recent things happening.
The subject of breaches and the procedure for dealing with them is one of the first things Todd should have been trained on.
Special phone numbers to call, checklists to follow, all of that. This is one of the first things that should have come up between Avery and Todd.
If Avery is bringing this up for the first time at this juncture then this is on Avery.
This right here. Letting Todd loose without letting him know about this kind of protocol really is on Avery.
yep first jobs of having a security clearance is reporting breaches of security
I suspect that Avery doesn’t have a plan or a procedure for someone like Todd in the first place. His agency is the kind of place where you’re hiring from people who already have security clearances and how this sort of thing works.
He doesn’t HAVE a SOP or a frame of reference for what he needs to do for civilians because its never been a factor until now. And thus he overlooks things, because it didn’t occur to him that there needed to be anything more said that what he had.
Sounds about right. Todd didn’t realize, Avery didn’t realize Todd didn’t realize.
Duuude! Did Avery just threaten to take Selkie away???
Not just Selkie. Amanda would be on the table too due to her Echo powers. Even with her being Todd’s bio daughter.
Someone else pointed out that it might not be Avery threatening to take her away, but warning Todd that his supervisors could decide to take her away. It might well not be on him.
Yeah, the level of trust has to go both ways. Avery has to trust Todd but Todd has to also trust Avery. Trusting that Avery won’t just yank the kids away if something happens. If there is no trust, things get hidden because the threat of what might happen if you do tell is too great. They are also literally kids with super powers in an era of technology where there are cameras and recording devices everywhere. They are also kids, and probably do not understand the meaning of that, especially in the moment. The amount of adults that record themselves doing crimes and then post it online shows me that even some adults don’t understand, and they have the more developed brain. The government might be better off giving the kids something like anti-paparazzi clothes or stuff that disrupts signals when aimed their way than just telling the kids to keep quiet. Just seems like an exercise in futility.
Well to be fair to Todd he didn’t exactly have the opportunity to get a hold of Avery until then. Though if I were just put into his position I’d go straight to Theo and lay it on the table that the way he approached Avery about the pew pew has just put ALL of them at risk.
Ehhh, Todd surely has Avery’s contact information. At minimum, he could have left a voicemail. This is pretty much just Todd’s bad here.
Well if you look back about the time that happened Avery was hands full with a different set of new arrivals. Todd being the considerate person he was had a decision to make.
Todds shown he knows to immediatly inform when its not a close family member though, like calling Avery right as hes was going to sleep to update him about Scar. The issue isnt Todd being too considerate, its that he didnt want to get his parents involved when at this point he knows the rules and no longer has the uninformed civilian excuse. Its going to be alot harder for Avery to argue Todd isnt a future risk after this one.
Even grandpa was all “tell your guys I’ve seen this, I’ll cooperate” when it happened, Todd legit screwed this one up.
A lot of discussion here on who is in the wrong… Both screwed up, Todd for not taking this seriously and keeping secrets, Avery for not taking this seriously enough and keeping secrets. But before you knee jerk react about Avery’s threat, I see it as Avery acting extreme because of shock and surprise. Sort of like how you can over react when scared and realize you did something you aren’t proud of later.
The real answer to who is wrong is: the government, for keeping secrets.
What would the actual harm be if the public learns about the existence of Echoes? Everyone already knows the sarnothi have lasers of some sort, it was on the news. Also, this is the United States, one of the most gun-happy countries in the world where normal people can already legally carry lethal weapons anyway.
The government also tried to keep the existence of sarnothi as a whole secret (with the stupid and insulting “it’s just a skin condition!” excuse) until the very last moment, only reluctantly admitting their existence when it had become impossible to deny. Which, when it happened, did not cause widespread panic or catastrophe despite how poorly the reveal was handled, proving that the secrecy was never necessary from the beginning.
This isn’t legitimate military secrets that could be dangerous in the wrong hands. This is just keeping secrets for the sake of keeping secrets.
Both Todd and Avery are merely guilty of trying to make the best of a bad situation, because the idiots in charge will punish them if they attempt to act reasonably.
The thing is, in any world, there will always be bad people who will use anyone and anything with power to get what they want. There will be mad scientists who want to do experiments, and see how far Echo powers will go; maybe for mind control or maybe enough power for a nuclear bomb.
The government has to consider the millions of types of people: the overly kind, the seemingly kind but manipulative, the rich and powerful who buy their way in the world, and/or alien conspirators.
I know this may not be as different as USA with their lax gun laws, but this is considered an “unknown” case, and what isn’t know could be a drastic difference between mass hysterics and simply not knowing.
Not to mention that government officials and politicians will argue whether or not Sarnothi are considered citizens of USA, or even considered protected like all other humans in the country.
Generally speaking from my point of view and finding the possible reasons why.
If you want to combat criminal misuse of Echo powers, it’s better if the public does know what Echo powers are, so witnesses who see them misused will understand what they’re seeing and be able to make a credible report to the police without sounding crazy.
That applies both to the Echoes themselves committing crimes, and to other people kidnapping Echoes. Either way, you can’t meaningfully report it if Echoes officially don’t exist.
Heavily disagree with the notion that just coming clean with all the detail is the obvious and only correct decision. The thing is, once a secret is out in the public, there’s no way to pull it back if it winds up causing problems. And humanity does not have the best track record when it comes to dealing with “us vs. them” issues, especially when weapons are involved, especially when people get scared, especially when the unknown becomes more real than the people right in front of you.
See, for example, the mob killing a Sikh right after 9/11, because he wore a turban and the mob was angry at people associated with turbans.
Humanity would not react well to the sudden reveal of Magic Powers Existing, let alone ones only in the hands of Them, and to pretend otherwise is overly idealistic. There’s a lot of discussion to be had before taking such a drastic and irreversible step.
Though hey, there’s another comic exploring this very concept! El Goonish Shive has recently seen a giant shift in public awareness of magic, and they explore — in great detail — the pros and cons of this Reveal. I’ve linked the pertinent section under my name here. They discuss how humanity reacts, but also how the revelation itself is impossible to keep under wraps for long in the modern era, so they are indeed forced to let the reveal happen faster than they otherwise would… and to deal with the spillover effects.
I believe the other part of EGS I’m thinking of is when Diane first comes to a party at Tedd’s house, and Tedd says something about making magic available to everyone, and Diane pretty much calls him a fool and lays out exactly why. Of course, that’s about giving powers to everyone, rather than revealing them to everyone, but it’s worth considering that kind of fallout as well.
And I say all that as a Neurodivergent person who hates hates HATES the amount of “hide what you know, don’t tell the truth, keep things secret” that we have to perform on a daily basis just to get along in human society. Tact is hard, and social lying annoys me, but there are reasons for people to be careful about what kind of information gets spread when.
I don’t think the threat is to take Selkie but more like… no more inside information, no trips to the colony? Todd had been privy to information about the “refugee” crisis and access that most people wouldn’t have.
I’m guessing if he tries, Selkie will fry him. Deservedly.
Talk about rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic, Avery not being told about Grampa is so “bad” while there are pew pew fire fights for everybody to see… Cat is out of the bag Avery…
While recognizing all that is said hear, I’d also like to repeat what I’ve said before: That Avery and his superiors HAVE to start preparing for the time when all of this becomes pulic knowledge – because that IS a ‘when’, not an ‘if’, and the latest developments just serve to confirm that
What event is being referred to? When did they get recorded?
Unauthorized use of echo powers, comic 1640
Reveal of recording, comic 1647
Settle down Avery: you’re treating Todd like an employee, whilst you’re talking to a parent.
And this is why Grandpa shoulda kept his damned mouth shut