I imagine Lillian’s metaphor as referring to a Labrador with pigtails.
Andi's probably going to need the sort of patience that allows you to sit outside the temple for a week being denied entry before you are allowed to join the other monks.
I imagine Lillian’s metaphor as referring to a Labrador with pigtails.
Wise lady.
You drug the animal.
The most viable way being to shoot her (the animal) with a tranquilizer gun.
(Or, as others would say, rubber bullets. Amanda is just another example of how well that works.)
Until Amanda wrestles the rubber bullet and/or tranquilizer gun away from you. Then she’s ARMED. ;P
Hahaha! That’s pretty much what people really do—both with animals and kids like Amanda. XD
Luckily, a different approach is being taken here.
I do not do this. The severity of the injury is assessed, then the appropriate measures taken. Duh question to me but I’ve been around critters all my life. Sometimes ya have to grab them, other times knock them out or put them out of misery, and then there’s the taking it slow with a hand extended.
Dave> This actually reminds me of Margaret Mead’s quote. I’m gonna paraphrase here because I can’t find it: “A hand held out in friendship, in assistance, or to stay the tear of a crying child, will not know if it will be received as it was intended.”
So true, especially in Andi’s case.
I admit I laughed. XD
So she has been semi-trained in the proper handling of Amanda and just ignored it… greeeeat.
??? No, she didn’t. She’s been doing pretty great so far. An occasional misstep doesn’t mean she hasn’t taken the lesson to heart.
She’s patient, respectful, allows Amanda to take the lead. Andi’s pretty good at it for someone who didn’t know whether eight year olds need diapers a couple of weeks ago.
I didn’t really take that diaper comment seriously. I thought it was just one of those jokes thrown into a story for the sake of getting a laugh or something.
Andi used to be eight, she should know very well that they do not need diapers.
A single conversation isn’t even semi-training. Andi is learning on the job. The error part of “trial and error”.
Leave a kid who has trust issues alone to fend for herself? Oh Andi….
Try cutting her a -little- slack 🙂 Her very first inclination was to respond with affection, a hug to try and comfort a child in pain. Granted, Lilian’s response shows how ignorant Andi’s answer was, but ignorance can be taught and usually isn’t done out of maliciousness (we’re all ignorant of something.)
Her second guess about leaving the child alone to learn independence sounds more like “I’ll answer with what I know” AKA “I’ll answer with how I was raised”. Again, ignorance and again showing that Andi didn’t have the most stellar upbringing. Her reaction to Lilian of “I already detest this game” seems more to be annoyance that she’s being shown she doesn’t know diddly about what she’s getting into, but Lilian is teaching her.
And the fact we’re having a flashback and the 5th panel in Wednesday’s comic is showing Andi-in-the-present THINKING about what’s going on shows she’s TRYING. Sure, Andi tried her method first (hugging) and got her hand proverbially bitten off, but it was the heat of the moment and she reacted instinctively. With care and affection.
Where have you been for the last dozen or so strips? Andi haters NEVER cut Andi any slack whatsoever.
Quite to the contrary, in fact – they will make up malicious nonsense about Andi (like that she only got Amanda because she want to use her to get back in with Todd, and will dump her the moment she realizes that won´t work), decree it to be proven fact, and then use it support viewing everything Andi *actually* does in the worst possible light.
At least we have people calling Andi out when she’s done something wrong. Nothing ruins a comic for me like checking out the comics if someone sees something wrong like I do and everyone is excusing the bad guy because she’s a she.
And Andi right now is an antagonist. People go against the antagonist and give them little sympathy. It’s the role of the antagonist after all.
Firstly, Andi haters are calling Andi out if she does something, period. EVERYTHING she does is evidence of psychopathic personality, her utter incompetence and the diabolical master plan she is following… somehow.
Secondly, she´s not a bad guy, or bad anything else. She´s someone who learned from their parent to be an extremely sorry excuse for a human being – sort of like a grown-up female version of Truck.
Thirdly, people not joining in to condemn her unconditionally has nothing to do with her gender, and a lot to do with her not being as cartoonishly bad as suggested by her haters.
Fourthly, she´s not the antagonist. She is, in her own incompetent and immature way, trying to fix what she screwed up.
Fifthly, the role of the antagonist is to oppose the goals of the protagonist, NOT to be hated by people. (Click the TV Tropes link at the top of the page and search for the “Villain Protagonist” and “Hero Antagonist” tropes) Andi stopped being the antagonist the moment she started trying to fix things.
Funny how I never said she was evil. Just DISGUSTING. Because she had 8 long years to tell the truth.
And the way she treated adoption was really hideous. Since she definitely knew he and his siblings were adopted. That was what made me dislike her. She thought so little of adoption and what she first said about Selkie. Really hideous.
She had eight long years to break out of her mom´s abusive behavior despite never having known a healthy family environment or developed the maturity to get out from under her mother´s thumb.
She also had eight long years to incriminate herself in having done, as a result of her mother´s constant abuse, an utterly horrible thing – incriminate herself to the guy who until shortly before the end still loved, whom she loved, and who she would have known would want nothing to do with her any more once she told him the truth.
You cannot POSSIBLY believe that this would have ever been easy for her, and the longer she kept up the lie, the harder it would become.
Note: I do NOT say that it was a good thing for her to have done what she did; I am however saying that – thanks to her mother´s continuing emotional abuse, not her own alleged inherent psychopathy – she had two equally terrible options to choose from.
AND, until she met Lillian at the orphanage and learned what Amanda had gone through, she must have assumed that her actions were in some part ameliorated by the fact that she´d given Amanda a much better life than she could have if she´d kept her.
In fairness, we don’t know *how* abusive Andi’s mom is. (Yet.) We know that she pressured Andi (possibly in the form of cajoling) to give up Amanda when Todd wasn’t there. We know that she wasn’t there to provide a buffer to a vulnerable, just-gave-birth teenager when the wants-the-baby boy showed up. We know that she refused to go with Andi to get Amanda, because she said her goodbyes to “that girl” long ago. We know that Andi didn’t feel her mother would be supportive (in the “you can do this” sense or in the “maybe you should hand him the kid and do your own life,” and we know that Andi couldn’t comprehend that Todd’s parents and family might be supportive.
We know that Andi’s mom never urged her to come clean about the lie. We don’t know if that was a spur-of-the-moment lie, or if it was instigated by her mom, or what. We don’t yet know if the ashes-from-the-fireplace was aided and abetted by Andi’s mom? Or am I blanking on something?
However, we can pretty much infer from how Andi’s mom has acted — the whole “it was for your own good” speech, and doing it fast when Todd didn’t show up in time — that Andi’s mom has at least a tendency to power over Andi’s boundaries and choices and make them herself, based on What Mother Thinks Is Best. We can infer from Andi’s conflict-avoidance that she was rarely or never allowed to talk back — that her homelife wasn’t one where people yelled at each other and had arguments, and then were able to make up. The implication is that either Andi knuckled under whenever there was an objection to Mother’s Authority, or made sure Mother Never Found Out if Andi’d made a mistake.
So… Yeah, there are people in perfectly normal households who do stupid things and/or horrible ones, with no Circumstances. And we don’t know how bad Andi’s mom is overall…
But it’s true that we do know that even if a stronger person might’ve done better than Andi, her mother was sure not helping her become stronger.
And while I’ve been pretty strong under some bad situation stuff… I know people who just aren’t. It’s not that they’re bad people, or were raised wrong. It’s that they… just somehow lack mean bones or something that make them stamp their feet and d–n the world and stand up OR run, for themselves. I don’t think Andi has that. Todd apparently does — and/or had the secure homelife to support it — and Amanda has, for all her NUMEROUS flaws, developed it.
Poor little firewalker kid.
I say we can at least guess that Mum McClellan is, if nothing else, deeply manipulative for never bringing up these concerns about two teens having a baby themselves before Andi was alone giving birth. (I mean, Andi clearly had these doubts that she didn’t have an outlet to express to Todd, which suggests there was never, say, a family conference. And with the Smith family history, they’d be willing to at least CONSIDER it, especially if Andi said how nervous she was.)
We’ve no evidence yet that she ever abused Andi, physically or psychologically, but given that fact I think we can all conclude that she didn’t have Andi’s best interests at heart so much as she had her own.
I doubt this was a spur of the moment thing.
“Oh, by the way, Andi, I kind of think that maybe keeping the baby isn´t the best choice for you.”
“You know, Mom, I think you´re right. Let´s give the baby away without a second thought and lie to Todd about it afterwards.”
The above probably not quite how it went… most likely her mom spent most, if not all, of the time since Andi told her she´s pregnant, trying to dissuade Andi from keeping the baby.
I mean, sure, someone who prefers to think of Andi as a caricature of a psychopath might believe that she went with her´s mother´s suggestion at the first casual mention of adoption, shortly before the birth. But for those who consider Andi a human being, although an immature one, a more prolonged and determined process of persuasion is necessary.
Andi’s mom certainly has a lot of blame here. She’s obviously been overbearing and demanding during the pregnancy. Maybe even before. And indeed it might have been her idea of the urn, or none at all all things considered.
We just don’t know the extent of abusive if any because pressure is not abuse out the get go. Her mom may have been freaking out and panicked as well thinking her daughter’s life is done with. Some adults do that. My aunt tried that on my mom with me.
So while we don’t know if Andi’s mom was a nightmare to deal with (we simply don’t have enough scenes with her.) We can be certain if she wasn’t so overbearing things would be different.
On the contrary, I imagine she thought pretty highly of adoption, considering he’s adopted and his family are amazing. I’m sure the dumb, naive teenager was sure she was doing what was best for her kid, and I can certainly understand how hard a lie like that, in a situation like that, would be to break free of. That doesn’t excuse it, but it doesn’t condemn her either.
I have a problem with your Secondly… I would never call Andi “not a bad guy”. Sure, she’s no Oilcan Harry twirlin’ a mustachio but, surely, you can look at her actions and see even as a childish adult there had to have been moments in her life presented to her that said, “Hey, people have a problem with me.” — namely Todd. She is not learning. There’s nothing wrong with her brain. She can learn. She can get around what is presumed to be bad early learned behavior due to her mother (no true confirmation on this per say). But I just don’t jive with calling her “not a bad guy”. You can’t always blame your parents when you yourself are an adult. Todd told her what to do: “Grow up.” We shall see (I assume in the next strip or two) if she really does make this attempt. Perhaps telling her to her face how immature and stupid she’s being was the first real push anyone’s given that she “got” but I doubt it was the only one. Todd himself wanted less to do with her before Selkie due to her attitude, especially about adoption. Can she even SEE how mature Todd is being not flipping a gasket in public when she shows up at the aquarium with Amanda and he learns all the crap that happened? I’m curious about that actually. Do I want to see her cry herself to sleep tonight? Yes. Definitely. That means she’s contemplating her actions, hopefully, and seeing the result they’ve had on people, leading to, again hopefully, a learning experience that sticks. One can only hope:)
Growing up has a steep learning curve – especially when you´re doing it at age 26 instead of as a teenager.
Being a parent also has a steep learning curve – especially if you are taking in an abused (and abusive) child like Amanda instead of raising your baby from birth.
Doing both at once would be tough for anyone. Andi is at least trying to redeem herself, and although she sucks at it (unless she were to give up because it´s too hard and doesn´t show instant results), I think we should cut her a little bit of slack for that, as long as she keeps trying.
Umm, considering her goals are kind of at a crossroads with Todd’s, even a little bit, she is an antagonist. You’re kind of fooling yourself there. She’s in the opposite position, much like Truck and his father were.
And it is the role of the antagonist to be hated by the audience. Because that’s what naturally happens. She has not stopped being the antagonist just because she’s trying to fix things. Plus it looks like she’s kind of still trying to shield herself from blame with how long she’s delaying admitting she was the to lie to Todd. She’s also acting delusional about a relationship with him that we all know will not happen. Just trying to fix things does not take away from her role as Antagonist since she and Todd are not working together yet.
And I wasn’t saying the andi-supporters are supporting her because of gender. Just that there are comics, and indeed other media that shows women doing horrible things and fans supporting her because of gender.
As for her not being a bad anything, bullshit. She is a horrible person trying to make herself better, but still horrible. You can’t screw with someone’s head for 8 years, never try to fess up to your mistake, and insult adoption knowing he was adopted and still be a good person. This is a level of personal mental manipulation that means in real life, Andi would be a huge scumbag. It doesn’t matter how nasty her mother is, many people with nasty parents come out of it still quality people. And whether you like it or not, Andi is not a quality person. I wish her luck on becoming a better person, but people like her in real life, I wouldn’t spit on them if they were on fire.
I got annoyed with Buffy the Vampire Slayer when Buffy got excused over a few things on account of being the hero and being female, but her guilt was never properly addressed in some cases… and guys doing similar things were castigated as beyond redemption. (And then midway through the last season the gang voted Buffy “out of office” as it were… for completely stupid reasons.)
The really jarring one was having Dawn apologize to Buffy over an incident where Buffy stole Dawn’s boyfriend (even though Buffy was an adult in charge in the school and should never have gone after him… though, to be fair, magic was involved).
But the big one that hit me was (and I could go into a huge rant on this alone) that Season Six included at least two instances of sexual assault that involved Buffy and Spike. Spike does attempt to rape Buffy, and a lot gets made of that, but it seems like people overlook that Buffy earlier did *actually* rape Spike. He had stopped their encounter and made it very clear that he wanted her to leave and to leave her alone, and she responded by dropping down and playing with his genitals, manipulating him to the point where he didn’t object anymore — and that after he had said part of the reason he wanted to call it off was that he didn’t feel in control or able to stop, or that she treated him like a person instead of a sex object.
It’s the one series I know of where there’s such a clear distinction between how the woman’s guilt is dealt with (largely ignored) and how the man’s guilt is dealt with (irredeemable). And like I said, I could totally go into a huge rant on it, because it really bugs me.
We think the same way. It makes my teeth grind when women in media get away with murder while men get punished for every little thing, even when he’s done nothing wrong.
Take My Wife and Kids. The women make up a holiday to force their men to buy them jewelry. The main character can’t afford diamonds, and besides, feels he shouldn’t be obliged to buy diamonds on command, so he gets her pearls. She spends the whole episode putting him through absolute hell and embarrasses him because he won’t play the game. They end the episode by him apologizing.
If the sexes were reversed and the men put on a holiday where the girls had to buy them beef jerky and Xbox, the women would torture them and the men would apologize to them.
So I keep a very close eye on that kind of crap. I haven’t seen that with Selkie, and in fact have been pleased with the even mix of good and bad.
And I don’t even mind the Andi-supporters. I may hate Andi as a person, but I can appreciate her as a character. So I see where they’re coming from. I even put a little bit of blame on Todd’s shoulders, 1% of the blame only, but when he was so enthusiastic about it he was missing Andi’s anxiety, I can’t put it all on Andi. Especially with an overbearing mother we know was being overbearing. She was a stupid teenager. I know I’ve done stupid teenager stuff.
At the same time, she’s kept the lie for too long and we don’t know how long her mother badgered her on it. Besides, she can make her own choices, so I don’t accept giving her leeway or a break on it, unlike Sir Chaos. Sorry Chaos, not calling you out, just you are one of the more visible members of that faction.
Women characters should be called out for their wrong, I’m glad you and many other people here agree with me.
Wow. I dislike her immensely but my grandmother taught me never to hate. I do dislike her immensely. Do I cut her some slack? Sure:) See my Margaret Mead paraphrased quote above:) It fits the bill and is neither for nor against Andi. Is she trying here? Sure. I will not bash her for it. Only shake my head lots over her prior actions and see how she does in the future. If she were a real person, I’d talk to her and perhaps try and help her. Maybe not. Depends on if Todd was my friend. If he were, I’d advise he stay away from her and want nothing to do with her… and then I’d find out Amanda is their kid and I’d have to say… “Craps…” Gotta love a good story!
She’s suggesting leaving a kid to fend for herself. Excuse me but a CHILD isn’t a game. Amanda is a responsibility. She obviously isn’t ready.
Keep in mind the analogy is for an injured animal so I believe Andi might be trying to think along those lines and apply it to a child but, yeah, not really working.
Her INITIAL suggestions was the complete opposite, though. Not that this counts, of course, because it would cast Andi in a less than utterly horrific light.
It’s reasonable to use the term “game” for things that are not games, including when it’s clear that the person actually has an answer in mind but instead of teaching you is going through all your wrong answers first.
And Andi had a decent answer first, it’s just not effective toward wounded creatures (Zuko from Avatar comes to mind, violently rejecting the help that could’ve easily healed his uncle, because in the heat of emotion you can’t think straight). And she shouldn’t be expected to know the correct answer for a traumatized child because MOST people don’t know the answer for a traumatized child — it takes a lot of training to have the right responses in mind — and she had no reason to expect, prior to that meeting, that her daughter was that bad off.
I’ve been studying the aftereffects of trauma (especially abuse and sexual assault) for months now and I barely have a grasp on the basics. It’s not something that comes to humans instinctively, all the more because certain defense mechanisms mean wearing a mask that’s hiding your internal reality (e.g. angry instead of scared) and closing yourself off so you don’t get hurt again, which lead to mixed signals about what you really want and/or need.
And honestly, I took Andi’s second response more like “If Amanda’s acting upset, maybe I need to give her some breathing room” (a reasonable response for an introverted child, by the by — give us space, let us work things out privately, don’t force us to be around people when we’re worked up or emotional), and then maybe trying to find a way to justify that impulse to pass the test.
Amanda doesn’t seem to be an introvert, but I know for me, showing negative/vulnerable emotions (such as crying) in public always feels awful, and I hate it when extraverts break this. Like, if I give them a private prayer request and they immediately have us pray right there… because a request I didn’t discuss in prayer group is probably one that I’ve got a lot of emotions about, and praying out loud in public is gonna make me feel those plus a layer of embarrassment, which is gonna make me cry, and then I’ll feel worse. But extraverts don’t even think about this kind of thing.
So when I have to deal with negative emotions, I want space and a private place where I can cry into a pillow or something, and not have other people intrude. And I can sort through my feelings and get a hold of myself again.
Though, I can see this leading to situations of “Deal with your emotions in private and only interact with the group when you’re happy and not disturbing to the rest of us.” Which doesn’t really deal with problems that might need to be dealt with. So there’s some nuances.
Also, what works with me probably wouldn’t work with most extraverts. And I don’t know how much it might need to change for traumatized people or victims of abuse.
Also, quite clearly “game” refers to Lillian´s guessing game via animal metaphor.
“I already detest this game” is shorthand for “I am well aware that you know how to handle troubled kids and I don´t. Quit rubbing my nose in it, and start telling me what I should do.”
Also what I said isn’t condemnation. It’s really more “Yer Kidding Right? She’s kidding right?”
What words you choose and opinions you have on Andi doesn’t matter. After all, you’re not supposed to be anything but a pure Andi Hater that won’t listen to anyone.
I mean I understand what you meant and most everyone else does and that you aren’t just twisting a taped on mustache. Not that this counts, of course, because it would cast you in a less than utterly horrific light. And we can’t have that. 😛
Andi is going to have to be like Cheetara?
Or Hiccup from the Train Your Dragon movies.
I was referring to the comment in the Transcript box. 🙂
Oh, good. Very glad for this flashback, as it reassures us that Lillian didn’t just hand Amanda over, which seemed… out of character, shall we say.
Also, “Your hand is bitten off”. Priceless.
I was attacked by a Gru.
Sharp learning curve ahead! Lillian’s advice is excellent and accurate, but it’ll take a while for this kind of advice to sink in for Andi.
This flashback does a great job of showing the emotional traits Amanda sort-of inherited from or shares with Andi. Both have a strong stubborn streak, and based on that facial expression in panel 5, an intense dislike of not getting things right/their way.
Andi doesn’t just have to learn how to “handle” Amanda to gain a trusting rapport with her; the learning curve is made steeper since some of Andi’s own issues are being reflected back at her.
I agree. She’s already made a few big mistakes leading up to this point. Luckily, she’s actually remembering the advice before much more damage is done.
Yup!
Yeah, I think there’s going to be at least one more screw-up before Andi manages to get things reasonably in-shape, but we’re finally getting signs that she’s actually learning and taking advice to heart.
I still believe Andi can grow into a decent parent to Amanda, albeit probably one who’s going to have a really rough time once adolescence happens. (‘YOU GAVE ME UP AND TOLD DAD I WAS DEAD! FOR EIGHT YEARS!” is I suspect inevitable. Sorry, Andi, you gave her that bit of ammunition yourself.) It’s just a matter of her growing into it FAST, with a daughter who’s been hurt badly and doesn’t have time for any screwing up. *Tries to beam the words “GET A CHILD AND/OR FAMILY PSYCHOLOGIST, NOW” into Andi’s head*
Lillian is Teh Gamemaster!
Lilian’s face in the last panel looks abnormally long. Might want to fix it up a bit, Dave!
Looks pretty on par here compared to how she’s been drawn in the past. She seems to have a long face. Nothing wrong with that.
I dunno man. She looks high as a kite in that last frame.
Huh, I was imagining more like a Rottweiler with pigtails.
Exactly what I was thinking…
Ha! Exactly ditto!
Why do I get the feeling Andi knows nothing about wild animals?
If you’re new to working with animals, you *start with one that doesn’t have behavioral problems.*
Andi doesn’t exactly have that option, though…
Labrador with pigtails. Now given the average Lab’s disposition, that would actually be a treat.
I’m thinking more along the lines of a mistreated Terrier mix with trust issues, abandonment issues that you’ve just picked up off the street. It wants to get attached and has been seeking human companionship, otherwise you wouldn’t have been able to induce it to come home, but I guarantee you’re going to get bitten quite a few times, and sometimes in the most surprising moments when it suddenly checks out.
I found the best method of gaining trust was to hold it down, growl the pack leader command and bite its ear. Once Alpha position was established, a lot of issues went away. Not sure how this would work with humans though.
If’n ya don’t understand dog packs, you don’t have any comment.
BTW, that ear bite only had to happen once, she never broke skin ever again and lived a long, happy life instead of being sent to Animal Control and certain death. People were in the habit of dumping animals on the end of our street. And man did she love tug-of-war.
I’m for the terrier analogy. Little dog, big attitude, loud and obnoxious, bites if you touch them if they’ve been abused or if they’re scared by their own farts. Everyone can be an enemy, especially if it is strange. ALL over her owner (mother). Sure. Fits to me. The only thing not is the whole going up to people and puppy-dogging them to adopt her when she was at the orphanage. But those days are over. Eh. Interesting analogy.
If you read up on modern psych, you might find that almost no one believes that any more except for a guy on TV.
That study was originally done on wolves under extremely flawed set up and conditions. Wolves may behave like that in cramped conditions but don’t behave like that in the wild. And sorry, but comparing domestic animals to wild animals is a flawed comparison. If you don’t know lemmings you might believe they run off cliffs, well they do when they’re driven to that.
And like a lab, you have to make sure they don’t jump on guests and soil the rug when you’re out.
It reminds me of the Japanese story of the lady and the crescent moon bear.
http://www.opuspeace.org/topics/mythsandrituals/crescent-moon-bear
People actually defending Andi for once? Holy hell color me impressed.
I feel like she’s got a ton of learning to do, but she’s definitely willing.
Andi gets people defending her. It is a distinct faction.
Personally, I’m not interested in defending her. I’m just not interested in condemning her. I’m interested in discussing and analyzing without feeling under attack when I posit a view that might not paint her actions as planned to be horrible from the get-go.
Andi has made a lot of mistakes and there’s a price to be paid for those mistakes. She has a lot of growing to do and a lot of work to do with Amanda – and Todd, and Selkie.
I just am uncomfortable with a level of vitriol that seems aimed at shutting down discussion of possibilities other than ‘Andi is a horrible human being who deserves no redemption’. If that comes across as defense… I don’t know what to say.
I think Andi’s actions have struck a cord. I believe that if you ask every person why they’re truly angry at Andi, they’ll tell you a story of betrayal and manipulation they had to go through. Or it stands against some strongly felt part of their belief system. In a way this is great, people are invested in the story and in her.
Sorry if you feel uncomfortable and if people have tried to shut you down. It’s a lot like as we’ve seen this comic, trying to reach out to a cornered animal and losing your hand I guess.
Andi has struck a personal nerve with a lot of people here, we can only ride this ride to its end.