Well now, that escalated & de-escalated rather quickly.
I think a large portion of us saw where Amanda was going last page, but I can honestly saw I wasn’t expecting the swing/”fighting back” (I put quotes as it was defending from a non-attack, so the back part doesn’t really fit) I do like Andi putting a rather core rule out there, and Amandas miffed response.
Absolutely. Amanda is still adjusting to a brand new situation, and it’s going to take her a while, especially given her history. Both she and Andi have lots to learn, and it won’t be easy, but I think they will be good for each other, with a little hard work and love. There’s no need to give up so quickly š
Dave – just want to commend you for your parent/child relationship portrayals in this comic. Although I don’t have all that much experience, I have worked with kids going through tough times/with rough histories before, and I really see them in Amanda (the acting out, the defensiveness, the teasing, the hurt). I’ve loved the story from the beginning, but the characters have really been hitting me lately. Keep it up!
Heck, if anything, her behavior with Andi may get worse before it gets better, as she tests “will you still love me even when I’m horrible?” Gotta find out if someone’s gonna break your heart by trying to drive them away first, dontcha know.
I wonder if Andi will ever throw what happened to Amanda into Andi’s mother’s face. Amanda wouldn’t have had an easy time, and Andi wouldn’t have either, but hindsight suggests the support network (if only through Todd’s parents) might’ve been better…
If you think Andi can’t give Amanda what she needs, what makes you think institutionalised care can? Sure she “seemed” more well adjusted, but she wasn’t healed or there wouldn’t be an issue now.
You don’t give up on a child because of one event. If that were the case, we’d have all been drowned before we hit Kindergarten. Amanda doesn’t have issues – at this point she’s got several complete subscriptions. Andi and Amanda are still learning about each other. Andi just discovered one of her daughter’s triggers, she’s unlikely to do it again and Amanda knows taking a swing at Mom is not okay. Andi’s handling this aspect of her responsibility to Amanda pretty well, actually.
I actually thought Andi handled the aftermath of her yelling rather well. She apologized for the yelling, and handled being hit with restraint and an appropriate boundary and setting of consequences if it happens again. A lot of kids who haven’t been abused go through a stage of hitting. You don’t throw them away just because they are still in the process of learning how to be civilized.
Also, with regard to continuing to go shopping, I didn’t see this as a bribe connected with the hitting, but a continuation of a planned activity which helps bring down the drama level.
One issue I’m struggling to get straight with the discipline of my nephew — who is 11 and large for his age, spends almost every weekend at our house (Minecraft! his house is *so* boring you know), and has anger-management and other emotional/developmental issues — is when it’s okay to defuse the situation with pleasant things and when that’s just giving in to his tantrums.
I grew up with the idea that when a toddler makes a scene over something they want — say a candy or toy in the store — the one thing you must never ever ***ever*** do is give them the thing they want. Because that just teaches them a very simple concept: “If I make enough of a scene and embarrass my mom in public, she’ll cave and buy me the thing I want.” It’s horrible to train a child like that. My nephew has, sadly, been trained like that (which makes large portions of his current problems not his fault, but still in need of correction).
One time his mother was meeting us for a drop-off of him and his siblings, and we had been toeing the line with regard to some rule we had laid out for the kids. And they were being really fussy about it, and I wasn’t giving in, and it escalated… and their mom summed up her viewpoint with “All this over a fucking donut.”
Because to her, it was a matter of whether I was willing to make her kids upset by withholding sweet treats. And to me, it was whether I was willing to break down and give them the treats, thus training them that the rules we lay down have no teeth and no one needs to obey them, they just don’t matter.
I love my mom dearly, but the fact that she sided with my nephew’s mom that day made me sick. *She’s* the one who raised me with this principle! And my brothers and I were fairly well behaved because of it, because we knew that throwing a fuss didn’t get you anywhere.
But… I’m learning that when a child already has emotional problems — and my nephew has multiple reasons for it, it’s not purely bad parenting choices — that toeing the line on rules may not be the best solution to the problem. Which leaves me feeling like I don’t have any solutions at all… that’s scary, when you’re in charge of a kid.
Makes sense to me. Andi gets her yesterday. Today they have a fight/squabble/argument/whatever. Take her back. Damaged goods. Unsavable.
And if you have a baby, and the first day it pisses its diaper and pukes on your shoulder, give it away. It is also damaged, and unsavable.
If you get a dog and it poops on the floor, shoot it. If you buy a lamp and it blows a bulb, throw the lamp out. Remember, everything only gets ONE chance.
I try to take a light stance on negative comments. I don’t want to create an echo chamber where negatively critical comments get suppressed or hidden. In most cases, those opinions are as valid as the complimentary ones.
If it gets out of line I’ll request it stop, and repeat offenses get their comments held for moderation before airing*, but I try to take a light hand with such measures.
*Comments are held for moderation for other reasons besides negativity, so if your comment is held for moderation before airing, please don’t panic over it.
I understand Dave, and thank you for clarifying your policy: for the record, I think that it’s admirable. I will make sure to keep less savory aspects of the Internet out of my future posts.
As for the subject of Amanda being returned to the orphanage, I cannot say anything to add to the discussion: I agree with the opinion being voiced by the majority, that Andi and Amanda need time, but that Andi should not give up.
I’m really permissible about most things. I’ve only put a couple people on the moderation list, and those were commenters with a history of repeatedly being aggressively offensive purely for its own sake. I’m not going to restrict some one for disagreeing with me, but being aggressively hurtful after I’ve asked them to stop? That’ll do it.
Yup, not even one whole day (it’s been maybe 23hrs) and we already know it’s not going to work. /sarcasm
Andi has made more progress in less than a day than anyone else has made in 3 years. She hasn’t even gotten to “loving” part bc she’s just getting to the “getting to know you” part. She’s passing “let’s set some rules” with flying colors. Chill.
Goran: You’re right, it’s time to take Amanda back– as in reconquer territory.
I didn’t deal with the same kind of crud that Amanda had to deal with, but in its own way it left me in about the same place. BUT MY PARENTS DIDN’T GIVE UP ON ME. They loved me and showed it, and we worked it out. I still have trigger points, but they’re not what they were. And I was the kid who wondered what would happen if she murdered her parents.
YOU. ARE. WRONG. Every child can be saved. EVERY. Child.
But not every adult can be the one to save a child. *ahem*
In case you were wondering, yes, this is a touchy subject for me, and yes, I am angry. I debated posting it at all for that very reason. But in the end I decided that your sheer callousness needs to hear the ‘other side’. By my own estimation, if it hadn’t been for my mother in particular, I would be dead by my own hand or in jail for murder. And if I can be regained, so can anyone.
You can say whatever you want in response. Frankly I expect to hear something about how I’m ‘the exception’. But it doesn’t matter. Because if I’m an exception, who’s to say Amanda isn’t?
Andi didn’t tell Amanda she wished she’d aborted her, like my own mother did on a regular basis.
She didn’t mock Amanda and humiliate her in front of her friend, like my own mother did.
She seems to be intent on giving Amanda all the comforts of home: her own room, her own clothes, her own furniture. Guess who didn’t get an eye exam before she was thirty, because her mother was more intent on buying drugs? Ayup.
I don’t see anything wrong with Andi’s parenting at this point. But it must be nice to live in your world, Goran, where abuse is apparently non-existent and it’s always the kid’s fault. Your world must be a very, very nice place.
When did I ever say, or imply, the abuse was Amanda’s fault? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Second, the abuse you suffered – while awful – is not relevant to what we’re discussing. Someone doesn’t have to be abusive to not be fit as a parent. There are plenty of non-abusive parents who should not be parents.
And if you don’t see anything wrong with Andi’s parenting, you have an even more skewed view of the world than I do.
I think your last comment, about the world I live in, fits you a lot more than it does I, since apparently your situation is the only one that qualifies as abuse. Everyone else’s shitty situations be damned, right?
Wow, seriously Goran? Children don’t come with owner’s manuals. Parents don’t automatically know how to take care of them. If a parent has a new born that starts crying and they don’t know how to get it to stop, they don’t decide that it’s too hard to deal with and give the child back to the hospital where it was born.
They try different things, maybe even get advice from people who have been through this kind of thing before and they keep trying till they figure it out. Children aren’t instant packages of perfect, nor are they pets that you pick up from a pet store or animal shelter and decide later that they are too hard to take care of so you dump them back at the pet store or shelter.
Strong healthy families take effort and work, if you can’t handle that kind of thing in the first place you shouldn’t even begin to have a family. This attitude that people are throw away objects is why 50 percent of marriages end in divorce these days. No one really wants to put the work and effort into figuring things out and actually building strong relationships.
Instead it’s all “oh… this didn’t turn out to be the fairy tale I wanted it to be… I guess I give up and try again with someone else”. I have been with my husband for 25 years, through good times and hard times. Through mental health issues and alcoholism, and not only are we still together, but we are stronger than ever because neither of us gave up on the other when things got rough.
Children are far more fragile than adults, they are ruled by their emotions far more than logic. They don’t have the understanding or the experience needed to figure things out and need lots of patience and understanding to grow into healthy functioning adults. The only thing that would happen if Andi dumped Amanda back at the orphanage is that Amanda would be even more damaged than she already is.
She would only feel even more like something was wrong with her and that she was completely unlovable if her own mother dumped her after a few days, it would not be better for her, it would only make her worse off and probably set her up to being a troubled youth who would wind up in juvenile hall and eventually prison, or dead from suicide or drugs unless she got really lucky.
This might only be a comic, but the relationship dynamics are very real. I grew up in an abusive, dysfunctional home. I watched my siblings go down very similar paths due to these kinds of emotional issues. My older brother is dead now because he felt so unloved as a child that he made all the wrong decisions. My younger sister was given up for adoption when she was only 3 and wound up pregnant and living with a drug pusher because she was abused by her adoptive father and ran away when she was 16.
I’m the only one out of four children who turned out even relatively stable and that was only because I got a crap ton of therapy over the years. I would have wound up just like the rest of my siblings if people had just given up on me.
I think the thing that Andi has learned is that she’s going to have to be more careful with how she does things. When you’re a parent the child’s need have to come first (I’m talking needs here, not wants) And no matter how much she wants to avoid Todd and admitting that she lied to him, etc. She has to put Amanda’s needs for healing first. The panic retreat was not a good way to treat her daughter.
Well, granted, panic retreat has its downside, but sticking around to have that particular meeting right then in the schoolyard would not have worked out too well for Amanda either.
I agree Absolutely Sessine – the retreat wasn’t the problem – it was the panic part of it. Amanda needed a calm and peaceful retreat – instead she got a panic, and a reactive response that triggered her own PTSD response.
Calming down, and setting boundaries, and showing that she wasn’t rejecting Amanda was better for Andi, but she really needs to deal with her own issues before she got Amanda. Avoiding confrontation with Todd after the event is just aching for residual damage to both Amanda and Selkie. I think we’ve seen just the first prologue to this.
Heh. Well, yes. It’s not so good for kids when parents are panicking, ever. But I don’t think, at that particular instant, non-panic was one of the options for Andi. Her choices as I read them were: stand there paralyzed while disaster bore down upon her, or run away, run away fast! So, given that, I’m glad she got moving.
What really counts is what she does now. It’s got to be clear to her after this encounter that she’s going to HAVE to have that talk with Todd. She just… needs to have it without the kids listening in and hearing every last explosive detail of Todd’s reaction.
In Amanda’s defense though, I don’t think she tried to punch her. It kinda looks like that with the clenched fist, she just threw her arm up and back to get the ‘pushing’ hand off her shoulder. But yeah, she doesn’t need toys, she needs a talking to and a time-out.
No, she didn’t bribe her. She had promised toy shopping before and they are sticking to it. She didn’t take it away, because it’s obvious Amanda’s reaction is from being triggered after being raised in an abusive home versus being just hostile. Andi did the right thing in the response to this. She set firm boundaries and consequences for the next time it happens, and let it go. Totally reasonable for a first offenseāespecially since Amanda is still adjusting to a new home and needs help with her anger. I see counseling in Amanda’s future (probably family counseling for the both of them)āeven it it is just spoken about and not shown. A kid like that needs it and even without the abuse history they both could benefit considering their relationship, because there has to be a mountain of trust/rejection issues to overcome and having a professional help Amanda voice her feelings and guide the two of them would help early on.
Considering that this whole situation extends from a lie she told over eight years ago, it’s best that Amanda learn that telling the truth is important. Whether justified or not, Andi did promise Amanda that she could shop for a toy. In order for Amanda to understand that, Andi has to follow through with it. It should be noted that Andi gave Amanda a chance to back out of that promise.
Andi DID bribe Amanda with toys as she ran from Todd, and I didn’t consider it a stellar example of parenting at that time. Whether or not Amanda deserves toys, I do not think that refusing to take Amanda now would be considered bribery or capitulation.
Here’s an idea: Andi will buy the toys for Amanda, but Amanda won’t receive them until after a period of good behavior? Say, one hour per one dollar cost of the item: Amanda needs to be good for a day to actually possess a $25 item (bought for her). If Amanda is unable to behave well in the time period, the time resets, or is otherwise extended. While it isn’t economical for Andi to continue buying toys (nor is it great for Amanda), I’m sure other, more sustainable positive reinforcement for good behavior can be arranged.
I wouldn’t make her earn toys the first time they go toy shopping. And I wouldn’t promise a trip to go shopping and then hedge it by saying the toys have to sort of be earned. If any earning is to be done, that should be well discussed ahead of time.
Sometimes you have to teach grace, unmerited favor, just as much as you have to teach good behavior and rewards.
I’ve pretty much reached the point with a lot of my childhood bullies where I mostly just pity them. Still working through all the issues they left me with, but the hate isn’t really there anymore.
One of the girls who went at me all through middle school was a foster kid, and a native, in a tiny community about 15 minutes down the highway from an ex residential school, so the effects of that are still strong in the area. My dad told me that not long after I moved away, she hitchhiked out of town at like 15 and I don’t think anyone’s heard from her since. Good chance she’s either a crack whore or dead by now. I hated her so much, I actually have a journal page from when I was 12 fantasizing about slitting her throat. She made my life a living hell and was one of the main contributors to my ensuing depression and suicide attempts. Now if I think of her, I just kind of feel empty. There’s nothing for the rage to cling to anymore. With someone with a story like that, you really can’t feel anything but a whole lot of pity.
I’m writing a story in which the main character, Kathy, has spent fifteen or so years running from the guilt over doing some really bad things, the biggest of which was bullying a fellow high school student, Rachel, into suicide. And Kathy wasn’t even victimized herself, she just developed a very unforgiving attitude, so any little thing would set her off and she’d look to get even. But she really didn’t expect Rachel to kill herself.
I don’t know if you’d want to share more details of your story — and I would totally understand if you did not — and I also don’t know how to exchange emails without posting them publicly here (which I prefer not to do: I’m more careful where I post my email now that the dangers of that have been made clear to me), but if we could get on a private messaging system together, I would value any details you could share with me. It is my aim to be as realistic as possible with the characters who make up my story, and that entails getting real-life details where I can.
I have a cat. She was a stray when I got her. I didn’t even get her from the shelter, just an acquaintance who had been feeding her. I doubt a shelter would have let anyone adopt her, she was terrified of everything and insanely unsociable. Not violent, just didn’t want anything to do with anyone. They probably would have labeled her ‘unadoptable’. The vet said she was probably a pet to begin with, then abandoned. She didn’t trust me or anyone else. She hid all the time. People asked me why I didn’t take her to the shelter and get a friendlier one. This one was clearly hopeless. Why would anyone want a cat that’s terrified all the time? But I liked her and kept her.
It was two years before she fully accepted that I wasn’t going to eat her. Right at this moment she’s rubbing against my legs whining because I’m not paying enough attention to her. If I sit down, she has to be on my lap or right next to me. She still doesn’t like strangers, but once she knows you, she’ll never leave you alone.
Hurt things take time.
That is a beautiful story. And, yes. Hurt does take time. Speaking as a parent, an abuse survivor, and someone who adores her pets, please don’t ever compare animals to children. It is a huge disservice to them both. Cats are cats. Child are young human beings. They tend react very differently to rejection and abuse (as species go), but also really individual.
There are a million and one reasons a cat can be unsociable. Most often it isn’t abuse, but that they were not properly socialized within the first few weeks as kittens. And some cats an also be very sensitive by nature to begin withāespecially females.
But ironically, truly abused animals can actually have many different outcomes in personality. Most of the ones I’ve met who truly came from abusive households (including a dog I have who is a tripod) are low-key, but had some underlying anxieties (ex- they might hate being held or groomed a certain way).
Abused kids are a bit more complex. Their behavior can be pretty extreme when they are young. Some can be aggressive, but some can be withdrawn or come off as happy-go-luckyāshutting down their feelings to survive. How they come away from it really depends on their personalities and what they were exposed toāas well as the helpers who come into their lives afterwards.
I am not an abuse survivor, or a parent. I just have my cat. And yet I’m pretty sure in this one regard, my one point– that both kids and pets need and deserve our patience and love, most especially those who do not come from ideal circumstances, can be said to apply to both. The principles of patience and love do not apply to any particular species or individual. They are universally required.
Apples and oranges. Even if you are solely a pet person (for which then you shouldn’t compare animals to children–let alone abuse victims), it’s very important to recognize the differences and not go there.
I’ve had a cat like yours. She was a beautiful, sensitive animal who taught us so much about life, but I’d never compare her to a human abuse victim (or any other human being). She was a cat. A very intelligent sensitive cat, but a cat nonetheless.
I also currently own a 3-legged dog who was indeed abused (she was removed from her previous family)-āas well as 2 cats who came to us as strays and 2 younger dogs we adopted. They are our family, but I will never compare them to human children. They are dogs and cats–with glorious dog and cat natures of living in the moment.
Children are not that simple.
And on top of that, the kids=pets does a disservice to both. The assumption actually lands a lot more animals in shelters than learning about their nature. It also makes child-rearing a lot more complicated than it need be as we don’t “train” human beings. They are two different kinds of beings, and it takes a lot *more* than simply love and patience to help them.
I think you’re misreading Chug’s post. What I get from that (and from my own cat rescues) is that “do not expect an immediate good outcome. Be prepared to overlook bad behavior that has more to do with someone who is not in the room than yourself. Be kind but prepare to be firm if necessary. Patience and more patience and then even more.”
It has nothing to do with sensitivity and more to do with common sense.
So, let me spell this out in simple terms. Would you compare someone who has Downs Syndrome with a pet? No. Then you really shouldn’t go there with abuse victims.
Yes, I did write a wall of text. I am having a difficult time conveying that while I love and respect animals (and yes I do have a lot of animal experienceāI won’t go into how), it’s not appropriate to compare children (or any human beings) to themāeven if you are trying to do it to show compassion. It’s condescending, and it’s also very inaccurate and propagates misunderstandings of both.
I think that understanding this, “Hurt things take time” and having a working understanding of behaviorism will allow you to make progress with anyone, regardless of their species! I’ve seen it happen with kids and cats (albeit things were a heck of a lot easier with the cats than the kids!).
Thank you. The message is great, yes, but the way it is presented is not. I get very tired of people referring to kids as things and comparing them with pets. A big problem with our society is that people view their kids as extensions of themselves or property versus human individuals with actual rights.
No one would dare compare a black person with a black dog. No one (who actually uses their brain) would dare compare a disabled person with a disabled dog. It is wrong to do so with children and/or abuse survivors.
Sometimes the point of an analogy is to take the core of the issue away from the defensive mechanisms that go up whenever you discuss the issue in the terms it’s naturally presented in.
For example, Star Trek did this with racism: People who were already prejudiced against Blacks or Mexicans or the Irish or the Chinese would have trouble looking at their own prejudice if the form of the episode made use of the particular prejudice they already had. So instead Star Trek turned the core issue into a tale of one set of aliens with black on one side of their face and white on the other, who were trying to kill another set of aliens who had the same colors but on the opposite sides of their face.
I think Chug’s comment was partly a response to Goran’s insensitive “Just take her back, she’s clearly damaged” remark. And we don’t really know what causes Goran to speak that way about a human child, as if you could just dump this damaged one and get a new one fresh from the factory no biggie. Maybe Goran knows some real-life people who he considers so damaged that it’s impossible to help them and the right move (in his eyes) is to give up on them.
But perhaps Goran could see the issue better if we took the issue away from Goran’s particular prejudices. Moving it to an anecdote about animals can do that — partly because even people who tend to dislike children (particularly bratty children) often appreciate animals.
So if he can’t appreciate the story of a child who reacts to an abusive situation with abusive attitudes and behaviors, perhaps he would be better able to see that point if demonstrated via animals.
That is *not* to say that humans and animals are on the same plane, or that the issues are entirely comparable. But it’s like when you demonstrate the size of the galaxy by calling a lamp the sun and placing different sizes of balls at various points: It’s something you can wrap your head around even if the original reality is too much for you.
Also, “no one who actually uses their brain would dare compare a disabled person with a disabled dog”? So that little girl without any legs who saw the puppy who was missing a paw and said “Oh! He’s JUST LIKE ME!” was somehow incapable of making a reasonable inference about similarities on an intuitive level? Because I’m pretty sure she just did that, and she was right (also, it was really cute, and I’m glad that the dog made her feel more hopeful about her own situation).
A little amputee girl is welcome to compare her experience to an amputee animal, because she *is an amputee*. If I say to one-armed and/or one-legged kid (or adult), “Hey! Check it out! I own 3-legged dog so I’m going to compare what my dog has been through to human amputees,” that kid might find it a bit condescending and ignorantāand she’d probably be pretty justifiably offended.
My dog has been through a lot, and I have given her a lot of love, assistant and supplements to help her heal and thrive (for nearly 11 years). I carry her up and down her stairs several times a day so she can go pee, because her single functioning hip joint is wearing out.
That *still* gives me no right to make a comparison. A canine amputee and human amputee have pretty different issues to deal with starting with physicsālet alone with how society treats them. They can also heal very differently both inside and outādepending on the limb they lost and the accident.
This does not diminish what my sweet dog has been through nor the love I feel for her nor the love/concern I feel for other human beings. If an amputee person wants to compare herself to my dog, that is her right or choice. But it’s not my place or business to do that at this point in time.
why are people son harshly judgemental and quick to give up on a little girl? amanda has some big problems but there is no reason to think they’re unfixable. as far as i know, she hasn’t had any kind of counseling or treatment at all, and if andi is smart enough to get amanda (and andi herself) some help, a good outcome is not inevitable but very possible. nobody deserves to be summarily thrown away.
Because very few totally grok what she’s been through. It comes off as an afterthought or a lie. People would rather see her has a horrible little girl than see the horrible things that happened to her as real.
Also, she has continuously bullied our favorite character so it’s very hard for many people to look further than black and white and see Amanda more than just a villain. It may also make some people go into places they don’t want to…starting to question the lives of their childhood bullies. Rather uncomfortable place to go if you think your world is painted with one paintbrush.
Love it when people use “grok” because sometimes I’m convinced that I only dreamed about learning it somewhere outside my own brain. But it’s a good meaning here, the opposite of superficial, drinking it in until you know it completely.
And yeah, one of the strengths of Selkie is that it’s not written in simple, B&W terms. Perhaps that’s actually the greatest strength, really. The only character I’ve seen be an out-and-out villain so far was the principal, and he had a nice daughter if I recall, so he can’t be too terrible even if we’re only seeing the outside nastiness.
Every other negative character, up to and including Truck and his father, has been redeemed, not in the idealistic and complete-in-one-step way but in a more natural, “I see what you mean now, and I do regret it” sort of way that requires greater time for change.
Amanda has had this development working on her for a long time, and she’s had more ups and downs than I think any other character. It’s taken me a long time to sympathize with her, but yes, this isn’t a binary story, and there’s a great deal of depth to many characters that are easy to stereotype.
It’s an inspiration to me as a writer, just to write humans who are human.
P.S. Wasn’t there a bit in the series M*A*S*H, where Sydney Freedman, the psychiatrist, was considering whether Hawkeye Pierce was mad, and concluded that a person who reacted to abnormal circumstances in a *normal* way would be mad — reacting to abnormal circumstances in an abnormal way made you rational.
Sydney and Winchester were mine. I actually think the cast change was the best thing that ever happened to that show, and my favorite episodes of all were always the ones where Winchester showed his human side: helping the guy who stuttered realize that he wasn’t dumb, helping the guy who lost his arm to realize that the music was still there inside him, and “the fault was mine; I gave them dessert before they’d even had their dinner” (paraphrase from poor memory)… my favorite really is the tears in his eyes when he tried to explain how much he loved music but could never play it well, so he couldn’t stand to see a musician giving up on his craft.
I imagine a big part of it is Amanda was one of our first antagonists, and it is fun to delight in the suffering of antagonists. that being said, I’m still looking forwards to the day that Selkie and Amanda have a conversation in which they are just each trying to top the other with emotional wounds of the past, rather than adding physical ones to the present.
I think it’s because most writing people are exposed to is binary. Antagonist is = villain, protagonist = virtuous. Antagonist and protagonist really only exist in terms of perspective. The main character(s) followed is the protagonist, the opposing character(s) the antagonist. Villain and virtuous are wholly different concepts. Then there’s nuanced. Amanda, being set up as an antagonist, is immediately cast as a villain, a dark, evil force since most literature we’re exposed to operates on this binary paradigm. Selkie gets the opposite treatment, where we have given rather unpleasant behavior a pass due to the protagonist therefore virtuous confusion. The story can be easily switched to Amanda’s point of view at the start and we’d think of Selkie as a cruel monster and possibly even have some individuals develop an opinion she is utilizing her minority status to her advantage.
The writing here is far more complex, and with little exposure to complex writing, seeing people dislike Amanda as a calculating villain as opposed to a hurt little girl that needs therapy and stability is not a surprise.
Don’t forget, Amanda and Selkie are half-sisters now, they just don’t know it. They have a father in common. I can’t wait for THAT realization to happen. I’m not sure which one will react worse to that news.
This is quite important. Andi still needs to learn what Amanda Marie’s limits and triggers are, and until she does and finds out how to counter the worst ones, keeping the secret about Todd a secret may actually be wise.
Andi is handling this situation very well (especially considering the emotional chaos she’s experiencing herself right know, leave alone Amanda’s emotional chaos). She’s already actively meeting two of “A kid’s 12 requirements for their parents” and didn’t fail any of the other ten so far: http://www.dr-michael-pelz.de/12_forderungen_eines_kindes_an_seine_eltern.html
It’s a German text, I’m sorry. I’ll translate the two requirements I have in mind:
7. Don’t make overhasty promises! – If you don’t keep your promises, I’ll feel awfully abandoned.
(Okay, there was an overhasty promise, but at least she is keeping it)
11. Don’t assume, it would be beneath you, to apologize to me! – Honest apologies make me feel loved and appreciated.
and another one, cause I like it the best:
4. Don’t be taken aback, if I tell you “I hate you”! – It’s not you I’m hating, but your power to foil my plans.
This list sits on my wall for at least ten years by now (not always the same wall – I moved four times – but still the same printout), and I hope that I’ll meet all of these requirements when I have children myself and that I already meet them in regard to my niece and nephew.
Thank you for the link. I would love to see the translations of the rest of the list. I’m hoping to be a parent in the near future and any help I can get would be greatly appreciated. Foster care did a great job teaching me what not to do, but I’ve had precious little of the right way taught to me. x.x
1. Don’t spoil me!
I do know, that I can’t get everything – I’m just going to test you.
2. Don’t be afraid of standing up to my tantrums!
Your steadiness is important to me, because it will give me confidence.
3. Don’t scold me while others are around, if it can be avoided!
I’ll care more about your words, if you talk to me quietly and in private.
4. Donāt be taken aback, if I tell you āI hate youā!
Itās not you Iām hating, but your power to foil my plans.
5. Don’t shield me from all the consequences of my actions!
I’ll have to experience some awkward and painful moments as well, to mature.
6. Don’t complain constantly!
If you do, I’ll defend myself by turning a deaf ear on you.
7. Donāt make overhasty promises!
If you donāt keep your promises, Iāll feel awfully abandoned.
8. Don’t act inconsistently!
It will make me feel insecure and I’ll loose my trust in you.
9. Don’t interrupt me and listen to me, when I have questions!
Otherwise I will turn to other people to get the information I want.
10. Don’t make fun of my fears!
They are terrifyingly real. But you can help me by trying to take me seriously.
11. Donāt assume, it would be beneath you, to apologize to me!
Honest apologies make me feel loved and appreciated.
12. Don’t try to act like you were perfect or infallible!
It will be a big shock to me, when I realize that you are not.
I grow up rather quick and it’s hard for you to keep up with me. But each day you are trying, is a precious one.
——————————————
It took me several hours and caused several headaches (especially #2), but it also was a lot of fun.
I did my very best to preserve the statements and to not violate grammar, and I’m open to improvements.
2. Don’t be afraid of standing up to my tantrums!
A firm attitude is important to me, because it will make me feel safe.
3. Don’t scold me while others are around, if it can be avoided!
I’ll care more about what you tell me, if you talk to me quietly and in private.
6. Don’t complain constantly!
If you do, I’ll protect myself by turning a deaf ear on you.
7. Donāt make overhasty promises!
If you donāt keep your promises, Iāll feel awfully betrayed.
11. Donāt assume apologizing to me would be beneath you!
Honest apologies make me feel loved and appreciated.
12. Don’t try to act like you were perfect or infallible!
It will be a big shock to me, once I realize that you are not.
_______________________________________________________
I think those are better (grammar and semantics) although #2 is still the most troublesome
I don’t think anyone’s pointed it out yet but…if the 2nd panel is supposed to be Andi’s right arm (the same one being pushed away in panel 3) then her hand is backwards.
…I’m not so sure every child can be saved. I grew up in an abusive home. There were times where I’d be taken away temporarily and put in “Safe Homes” for kids. People don’t care when someone over age 12 is abused, so you just go back. CPS, the cops, your teachers, no one cares unless you’re a cute little child.
Most of the kids in those safe homes were basically prisoners from murdering their parents (for various reasons.) Some of them couldn’t even read or write.
I kind of, uh, had a sudden epiphany on how Amanda got the scars on her arms and legs. Remember the story about the King and the Queen and the brother princes who stole into the room of the princess, and chopped off her legs and arms when she tattled to Queen and King? And how Queen and King didn’t believe her, and locked her in a tower?
I get that she screamed ‘toys’ as a a way to get her away from the previous situation ,but by this point, she shouldn’t be using it to reward bad behavior.
At lunch, Amanda told them that after school she was going toy shopping with her mother. The toys thing is not new. It was promised to her before she even went to school. It’s not good to break your promises. If she said “as long as you’re good, I’ll take you toy shopping after school”, then she could take away something that has already been promised. But as far as we can tell, this was an un-hedged promise, so Andi has to follow through. Especially as she has yet to earn Amanda’s trust.
Amanda is not being rewarded. Andi is choosing to follow through on a promise that was already made.
There’s a book by Robert A Heinlein called Starship Troopers (very little in common with the show or movie). In training, the main character watches one of the training officers get chewed out for letting a cadet land a punch on him. While the cadet broke a rule, the officer was also held responsible, because the officer failed to make sure the punch never got started, let alone never landed. Amanda is under a lot of stress right now. Her excitement is masking it, but it’s still there. We’re not sure if Amanda punched her, or just pushed her arm out of the way. Either way, what Amanda did was a reflexive action, not a calculated one. And, we can infer from the conversation, that the boundary she crossed was not actually set up beforehand. You can’t blame a child for breaking a rule she doesn’t know exists.
She doesn’t deserve to be rewarded, no. But taking the shopping trip away would be a punishment, which she definitely doesn’t deserve. Plus, she needs the clothes, furniture, and toys. She won’t feel completely at home until she has her own stuff.
If you want to read about dealing with adopted and “damaged” children. Read David Gerrold’s “The Martian Child.” Avoid the James Caan movie, David refuses to acknowledge the movie’s existence.
;-;
This reminds me of when I was in fourth grade and one of my friends freaked out and bit me. I later learned that his mother was abusive.
Well now, that escalated & de-escalated rather quickly.
I think a large portion of us saw where Amanda was going last page, but I can honestly saw I wasn’t expecting the swing/”fighting back” (I put quotes as it was defending from a non-attack, so the back part doesn’t really fit) I do like Andi putting a rather core rule out there, and Amandas miffed response.
I think Andi has learned her lesson. It’s time to take this kid back. She’s damaged. Sad, but not every kid can be saved.
Because “taking her back” worked for Amanda sooooooooooooooooooooo well the first time.
From what I saw of her, she seemed more well adjusted in the orphanage.
She’s also still in an adjustment period to a new life event.
Absolutely. Amanda is still adjusting to a brand new situation, and it’s going to take her a while, especially given her history. Both she and Andi have lots to learn, and it won’t be easy, but I think they will be good for each other, with a little hard work and love. There’s no need to give up so quickly š
Dave – just want to commend you for your parent/child relationship portrayals in this comic. Although I don’t have all that much experience, I have worked with kids going through tough times/with rough histories before, and I really see them in Amanda (the acting out, the defensiveness, the teasing, the hurt). I’ve loved the story from the beginning, but the characters have really been hitting me lately. Keep it up!
The orphanage provides qualified caregivers though. From what we’ve seen of Andi, I wouldn’t let her babysit my worst enemy’s kid.
Heck, if anything, her behavior with Andi may get worse before it gets better, as she tests “will you still love me even when I’m horrible?” Gotta find out if someone’s gonna break your heart by trying to drive them away first, dontcha know.
I wonder if Andi will ever throw what happened to Amanda into Andi’s mother’s face. Amanda wouldn’t have had an easy time, and Andi wouldn’t have either, but hindsight suggests the support network (if only through Todd’s parents) might’ve been better…
If you think Andi can’t give Amanda what she needs, what makes you think institutionalised care can? Sure she “seemed” more well adjusted, but she wasn’t healed or there wouldn’t be an issue now.
You don’t give up on a child because of one event. If that were the case, we’d have all been drowned before we hit Kindergarten. Amanda doesn’t have issues – at this point she’s got several complete subscriptions. Andi and Amanda are still learning about each other. Andi just discovered one of her daughter’s triggers, she’s unlikely to do it again and Amanda knows taking a swing at Mom is not okay. Andi’s handling this aspect of her responsibility to Amanda pretty well, actually.
“Amanda doesn’t have issues — at this point she’s got several complete subscriptions.”
XD XD XD
Thank you so much for this line. It made my night.
Great line. š
At some point in the future, when someone is referred to as “having issues” I’m going to steal this. Just sayin’
I actually thought Andi handled the aftermath of her yelling rather well. She apologized for the yelling, and handled being hit with restraint and an appropriate boundary and setting of consequences if it happens again. A lot of kids who haven’t been abused go through a stage of hitting. You don’t throw them away just because they are still in the process of learning how to be civilized.
Also, with regard to continuing to go shopping, I didn’t see this as a bribe connected with the hitting, but a continuation of a planned activity which helps bring down the drama level.
Indeed.
One issue I’m struggling to get straight with the discipline of my nephew — who is 11 and large for his age, spends almost every weekend at our house (Minecraft! his house is *so* boring you know), and has anger-management and other emotional/developmental issues — is when it’s okay to defuse the situation with pleasant things and when that’s just giving in to his tantrums.
I grew up with the idea that when a toddler makes a scene over something they want — say a candy or toy in the store — the one thing you must never ever ***ever*** do is give them the thing they want. Because that just teaches them a very simple concept: “If I make enough of a scene and embarrass my mom in public, she’ll cave and buy me the thing I want.” It’s horrible to train a child like that. My nephew has, sadly, been trained like that (which makes large portions of his current problems not his fault, but still in need of correction).
One time his mother was meeting us for a drop-off of him and his siblings, and we had been toeing the line with regard to some rule we had laid out for the kids. And they were being really fussy about it, and I wasn’t giving in, and it escalated… and their mom summed up her viewpoint with “All this over a fucking donut.”
Because to her, it was a matter of whether I was willing to make her kids upset by withholding sweet treats. And to me, it was whether I was willing to break down and give them the treats, thus training them that the rules we lay down have no teeth and no one needs to obey them, they just don’t matter.
I love my mom dearly, but the fact that she sided with my nephew’s mom that day made me sick. *She’s* the one who raised me with this principle! And my brothers and I were fairly well behaved because of it, because we knew that throwing a fuss didn’t get you anywhere.
But… I’m learning that when a child already has emotional problems — and my nephew has multiple reasons for it, it’s not purely bad parenting choices — that toeing the line on rules may not be the best solution to the problem. Which leaves me feeling like I don’t have any solutions at all… that’s scary, when you’re in charge of a kid.
Makes sense to me. Andi gets her yesterday. Today they have a fight/squabble/argument/whatever. Take her back. Damaged goods. Unsavable.
And if you have a baby, and the first day it pisses its diaper and pukes on your shoulder, give it away. It is also damaged, and unsavable.
If you get a dog and it poops on the floor, shoot it. If you buy a lamp and it blows a bulb, throw the lamp out. Remember, everything only gets ONE chance.
Like.
I love this comment so much.
Don’t be trollin’, Goran.
?????????
o.O
why are troll comments allowed here
I try to take a light stance on negative comments. I don’t want to create an echo chamber where negatively critical comments get suppressed or hidden. In most cases, those opinions are as valid as the complimentary ones.
If it gets out of line I’ll request it stop, and repeat offenses get their comments held for moderation before airing*, but I try to take a light hand with such measures.
*Comments are held for moderation for other reasons besides negativity, so if your comment is held for moderation before airing, please don’t panic over it.
I understand Dave, and thank you for clarifying your policy: for the record, I think that it’s admirable. I will make sure to keep less savory aspects of the Internet out of my future posts.
As for the subject of Amanda being returned to the orphanage, I cannot say anything to add to the discussion: I agree with the opinion being voiced by the majority, that Andi and Amanda need time, but that Andi should not give up.
I’m really permissible about most things. I’ve only put a couple people on the moderation list, and those were commenters with a history of repeatedly being aggressively offensive purely for its own sake. I’m not going to restrict some one for disagreeing with me, but being aggressively hurtful after I’ve asked them to stop? That’ll do it.
Yup, not even one whole day (it’s been maybe 23hrs) and we already know it’s not going to work. /sarcasm
Andi has made more progress in less than a day than anyone else has made in 3 years. She hasn’t even gotten to “loving” part bc she’s just getting to the “getting to know you” part. She’s passing “let’s set some rules” with flying colors. Chill.
Goran: You’re right, it’s time to take Amanda back– as in reconquer territory.
I didn’t deal with the same kind of crud that Amanda had to deal with, but in its own way it left me in about the same place. BUT MY PARENTS DIDN’T GIVE UP ON ME. They loved me and showed it, and we worked it out. I still have trigger points, but they’re not what they were. And I was the kid who wondered what would happen if she murdered her parents.
YOU. ARE. WRONG. Every child can be saved. EVERY. Child.
But not every adult can be the one to save a child. *ahem*
In case you were wondering, yes, this is a touchy subject for me, and yes, I am angry. I debated posting it at all for that very reason. But in the end I decided that your sheer callousness needs to hear the ‘other side’. By my own estimation, if it hadn’t been for my mother in particular, I would be dead by my own hand or in jail for murder. And if I can be regained, so can anyone.
You can say whatever you want in response. Frankly I expect to hear something about how I’m ‘the exception’. But it doesn’t matter. Because if I’m an exception, who’s to say Amanda isn’t?
May I send you Internet hugs?
Heh, we used to do it this way, back when I first got used to the internet: {{{{{katy}}}}}
Aw, thanks. You guys are so sweet….
I really don’t think of it that often anymore. Goran’s comment just poked the wrong button….
But thanks.
I’m sorry things were rough for you. Happy that they’re better now.
Regardless, I stand by my original statement. Andi is not fit in any sense to be a parent.
If someone is going to save Amanda, it isn’t her.
Well, let’s take stock:
Andi didn’t tell Amanda she wished she’d aborted her, like my own mother did on a regular basis.
She didn’t mock Amanda and humiliate her in front of her friend, like my own mother did.
She seems to be intent on giving Amanda all the comforts of home: her own room, her own clothes, her own furniture. Guess who didn’t get an eye exam before she was thirty, because her mother was more intent on buying drugs? Ayup.
I don’t see anything wrong with Andi’s parenting at this point. But it must be nice to live in your world, Goran, where abuse is apparently non-existent and it’s always the kid’s fault. Your world must be a very, very nice place.
When did I ever say, or imply, the abuse was Amanda’s fault? Stop putting words in my mouth.
Second, the abuse you suffered – while awful – is not relevant to what we’re discussing. Someone doesn’t have to be abusive to not be fit as a parent. There are plenty of non-abusive parents who should not be parents.
And if you don’t see anything wrong with Andi’s parenting, you have an even more skewed view of the world than I do.
I think your last comment, about the world I live in, fits you a lot more than it does I, since apparently your situation is the only one that qualifies as abuse. Everyone else’s shitty situations be damned, right?
Wow, seriously Goran? Children don’t come with owner’s manuals. Parents don’t automatically know how to take care of them. If a parent has a new born that starts crying and they don’t know how to get it to stop, they don’t decide that it’s too hard to deal with and give the child back to the hospital where it was born.
They try different things, maybe even get advice from people who have been through this kind of thing before and they keep trying till they figure it out. Children aren’t instant packages of perfect, nor are they pets that you pick up from a pet store or animal shelter and decide later that they are too hard to take care of so you dump them back at the pet store or shelter.
Strong healthy families take effort and work, if you can’t handle that kind of thing in the first place you shouldn’t even begin to have a family. This attitude that people are throw away objects is why 50 percent of marriages end in divorce these days. No one really wants to put the work and effort into figuring things out and actually building strong relationships.
Instead it’s all “oh… this didn’t turn out to be the fairy tale I wanted it to be… I guess I give up and try again with someone else”. I have been with my husband for 25 years, through good times and hard times. Through mental health issues and alcoholism, and not only are we still together, but we are stronger than ever because neither of us gave up on the other when things got rough.
Children are far more fragile than adults, they are ruled by their emotions far more than logic. They don’t have the understanding or the experience needed to figure things out and need lots of patience and understanding to grow into healthy functioning adults. The only thing that would happen if Andi dumped Amanda back at the orphanage is that Amanda would be even more damaged than she already is.
She would only feel even more like something was wrong with her and that she was completely unlovable if her own mother dumped her after a few days, it would not be better for her, it would only make her worse off and probably set her up to being a troubled youth who would wind up in juvenile hall and eventually prison, or dead from suicide or drugs unless she got really lucky.
This might only be a comic, but the relationship dynamics are very real. I grew up in an abusive, dysfunctional home. I watched my siblings go down very similar paths due to these kinds of emotional issues. My older brother is dead now because he felt so unloved as a child that he made all the wrong decisions. My younger sister was given up for adoption when she was only 3 and wound up pregnant and living with a drug pusher because she was abused by her adoptive father and ran away when she was 16.
I’m the only one out of four children who turned out even relatively stable and that was only because I got a crap ton of therapy over the years. I would have wound up just like the rest of my siblings if people had just given up on me.
I’m not even going to start reading this novel of a comment, sorry.
I think the thing that Andi has learned is that she’s going to have to be more careful with how she does things. When you’re a parent the child’s need have to come first (I’m talking needs here, not wants) And no matter how much she wants to avoid Todd and admitting that she lied to him, etc. She has to put Amanda’s needs for healing first. The panic retreat was not a good way to treat her daughter.
Well, granted, panic retreat has its downside, but sticking around to have that particular meeting right then in the schoolyard would not have worked out too well for Amanda either.
I agree Absolutely Sessine – the retreat wasn’t the problem – it was the panic part of it. Amanda needed a calm and peaceful retreat – instead she got a panic, and a reactive response that triggered her own PTSD response.
Calming down, and setting boundaries, and showing that she wasn’t rejecting Amanda was better for Andi, but she really needs to deal with her own issues before she got Amanda. Avoiding confrontation with Todd after the event is just aching for residual damage to both Amanda and Selkie. I think we’ve seen just the first prologue to this.
Heh. Well, yes. It’s not so good for kids when parents are panicking, ever. But I don’t think, at that particular instant, non-panic was one of the options for Andi. Her choices as I read them were: stand there paralyzed while disaster bore down upon her, or run away, run away fast! So, given that, I’m glad she got moving.
What really counts is what she does now. It’s got to be clear to her after this encounter that she’s going to HAVE to have that talk with Todd. She just… needs to have it without the kids listening in and hearing every last explosive detail of Todd’s reaction.
It’s going to be a long road for both of them. On a different note: I squealed excitedly at the Hogfather reference in the transcript š
I join you in squealing.
Good job Andi, your kid acts like a dick and tried to punch you in the face so you bribe her.
Amazing parenting.
Yeah, that’s about what I was thinking too.
In Amanda’s defense though, I don’t think she tried to punch her. It kinda looks like that with the clenched fist, she just threw her arm up and back to get the ‘pushing’ hand off her shoulder. But yeah, she doesn’t need toys, she needs a talking to and a time-out.
Except for the part where they had already planned to go toy shopping (note the use of the word “still”).
No, she didn’t bribe her. She had promised toy shopping before and they are sticking to it. She didn’t take it away, because it’s obvious Amanda’s reaction is from being triggered after being raised in an abusive home versus being just hostile. Andi did the right thing in the response to this. She set firm boundaries and consequences for the next time it happens, and let it go. Totally reasonable for a first offenseāespecially since Amanda is still adjusting to a new home and needs help with her anger. I see counseling in Amanda’s future (probably family counseling for the both of them)āeven it it is just spoken about and not shown. A kid like that needs it and even without the abuse history they both could benefit considering their relationship, because there has to be a mountain of trust/rejection issues to overcome and having a professional help Amanda voice her feelings and guide the two of them would help early on.
Considering that this whole situation extends from a lie she told over eight years ago, it’s best that Amanda learn that telling the truth is important. Whether justified or not, Andi did promise Amanda that she could shop for a toy. In order for Amanda to understand that, Andi has to follow through with it. It should be noted that Andi gave Amanda a chance to back out of that promise.
Andi DID bribe Amanda with toys as she ran from Todd, and I didn’t consider it a stellar example of parenting at that time. Whether or not Amanda deserves toys, I do not think that refusing to take Amanda now would be considered bribery or capitulation.
Here’s an idea: Andi will buy the toys for Amanda, but Amanda won’t receive them until after a period of good behavior? Say, one hour per one dollar cost of the item: Amanda needs to be good for a day to actually possess a $25 item (bought for her). If Amanda is unable to behave well in the time period, the time resets, or is otherwise extended. While it isn’t economical for Andi to continue buying toys (nor is it great for Amanda), I’m sure other, more sustainable positive reinforcement for good behavior can be arranged.
Please replace the words “refusing to take” above with “taking” in order to get my intended meaning.
I wouldn’t make her earn toys the first time they go toy shopping. And I wouldn’t promise a trip to go shopping and then hedge it by saying the toys have to sort of be earned. If any earning is to be done, that should be well discussed ahead of time.
Sometimes you have to teach grace, unmerited favor, just as much as you have to teach good behavior and rewards.
Makes me wonder about all the bullies I ever knew.
I’ve pretty much reached the point with a lot of my childhood bullies where I mostly just pity them. Still working through all the issues they left me with, but the hate isn’t really there anymore.
One of the girls who went at me all through middle school was a foster kid, and a native, in a tiny community about 15 minutes down the highway from an ex residential school, so the effects of that are still strong in the area. My dad told me that not long after I moved away, she hitchhiked out of town at like 15 and I don’t think anyone’s heard from her since. Good chance she’s either a crack whore or dead by now. I hated her so much, I actually have a journal page from when I was 12 fantasizing about slitting her throat. She made my life a living hell and was one of the main contributors to my ensuing depression and suicide attempts. Now if I think of her, I just kind of feel empty. There’s nothing for the rage to cling to anymore. With someone with a story like that, you really can’t feel anything but a whole lot of pity.
I’m writing a story in which the main character, Kathy, has spent fifteen or so years running from the guilt over doing some really bad things, the biggest of which was bullying a fellow high school student, Rachel, into suicide. And Kathy wasn’t even victimized herself, she just developed a very unforgiving attitude, so any little thing would set her off and she’d look to get even. But she really didn’t expect Rachel to kill herself.
I don’t know if you’d want to share more details of your story — and I would totally understand if you did not — and I also don’t know how to exchange emails without posting them publicly here (which I prefer not to do: I’m more careful where I post my email now that the dangers of that have been made clear to me), but if we could get on a private messaging system together, I would value any details you could share with me. It is my aim to be as realistic as possible with the characters who make up my story, and that entails getting real-life details where I can.
I have a cat. She was a stray when I got her. I didn’t even get her from the shelter, just an acquaintance who had been feeding her. I doubt a shelter would have let anyone adopt her, she was terrified of everything and insanely unsociable. Not violent, just didn’t want anything to do with anyone. They probably would have labeled her ‘unadoptable’. The vet said she was probably a pet to begin with, then abandoned. She didn’t trust me or anyone else. She hid all the time. People asked me why I didn’t take her to the shelter and get a friendlier one. This one was clearly hopeless. Why would anyone want a cat that’s terrified all the time? But I liked her and kept her.
It was two years before she fully accepted that I wasn’t going to eat her. Right at this moment she’s rubbing against my legs whining because I’m not paying enough attention to her. If I sit down, she has to be on my lap or right next to me. She still doesn’t like strangers, but once she knows you, she’ll never leave you alone.
Hurt things take time.
That is a beautiful story. And, yes. Hurt does take time. Speaking as a parent, an abuse survivor, and someone who adores her pets, please don’t ever compare animals to children. It is a huge disservice to them both. Cats are cats. Child are young human beings. They tend react very differently to rejection and abuse (as species go), but also really individual.
There are a million and one reasons a cat can be unsociable. Most often it isn’t abuse, but that they were not properly socialized within the first few weeks as kittens. And some cats an also be very sensitive by nature to begin withāespecially females.
But ironically, truly abused animals can actually have many different outcomes in personality. Most of the ones I’ve met who truly came from abusive households (including a dog I have who is a tripod) are low-key, but had some underlying anxieties (ex- they might hate being held or groomed a certain way).
Abused kids are a bit more complex. Their behavior can be pretty extreme when they are young. Some can be aggressive, but some can be withdrawn or come off as happy-go-luckyāshutting down their feelings to survive. How they come away from it really depends on their personalities and what they were exposed toāas well as the helpers who come into their lives afterwards.
^ Blah. Millions and millions of grammar errors. Will go drink her green tea now and wake up.
I am not an abuse survivor, or a parent. I just have my cat. And yet I’m pretty sure in this one regard, my one point– that both kids and pets need and deserve our patience and love, most especially those who do not come from ideal circumstances, can be said to apply to both. The principles of patience and love do not apply to any particular species or individual. They are universally required.
Apples and oranges. Even if you are solely a pet person (for which then you shouldn’t compare animals to children–let alone abuse victims), it’s very important to recognize the differences and not go there.
I’ve had a cat like yours. She was a beautiful, sensitive animal who taught us so much about life, but I’d never compare her to a human abuse victim (or any other human being). She was a cat. A very intelligent sensitive cat, but a cat nonetheless.
I also currently own a 3-legged dog who was indeed abused (she was removed from her previous family)-āas well as 2 cats who came to us as strays and 2 younger dogs we adopted. They are our family, but I will never compare them to human children. They are dogs and cats–with glorious dog and cat natures of living in the moment.
Children are not that simple.
And on top of that, the kids=pets does a disservice to both. The assumption actually lands a lot more animals in shelters than learning about their nature. It also makes child-rearing a lot more complicated than it need be as we don’t “train” human beings. They are two different kinds of beings, and it takes a lot *more* than simply love and patience to help them.
I think you’re misreading Chug’s post. What I get from that (and from my own cat rescues) is that “do not expect an immediate good outcome. Be prepared to overlook bad behavior that has more to do with someone who is not in the room than yourself. Be kind but prepare to be firm if necessary. Patience and more patience and then even more.”
At this point I’m pretty sure he’s doing it on purpose so he can show off how much more sensitive and experienced he is than all of us.
It has nothing to do with sensitivity and more to do with common sense.
So, let me spell this out in simple terms. Would you compare someone who has Downs Syndrome with a pet? No. Then you really shouldn’t go there with abuse victims.
Yes, I did write a wall of text. I am having a difficult time conveying that while I love and respect animals (and yes I do have a lot of animal experienceāI won’t go into how), it’s not appropriate to compare children (or any human beings) to themāeven if you are trying to do it to show compassion. It’s condescending, and it’s also very inaccurate and propagates misunderstandings of both.
And for the record? I’m a woman.
For some reason – hell, I know the reason, my past sucks – “hurt things take time” made me actively tear up.
I think that understanding this, “Hurt things take time” and having a working understanding of behaviorism will allow you to make progress with anyone, regardless of their species! I’ve seen it happen with kids and cats (albeit things were a heck of a lot easier with the cats than the kids!).
Thank you. The message is great, yes, but the way it is presented is not. I get very tired of people referring to kids as things and comparing them with pets. A big problem with our society is that people view their kids as extensions of themselves or property versus human individuals with actual rights.
No one would dare compare a black person with a black dog. No one (who actually uses their brain) would dare compare a disabled person with a disabled dog. It is wrong to do so with children and/or abuse survivors.
Sometimes the point of an analogy is to take the core of the issue away from the defensive mechanisms that go up whenever you discuss the issue in the terms it’s naturally presented in.
For example, Star Trek did this with racism: People who were already prejudiced against Blacks or Mexicans or the Irish or the Chinese would have trouble looking at their own prejudice if the form of the episode made use of the particular prejudice they already had. So instead Star Trek turned the core issue into a tale of one set of aliens with black on one side of their face and white on the other, who were trying to kill another set of aliens who had the same colors but on the opposite sides of their face.
I think Chug’s comment was partly a response to Goran’s insensitive “Just take her back, she’s clearly damaged” remark. And we don’t really know what causes Goran to speak that way about a human child, as if you could just dump this damaged one and get a new one fresh from the factory no biggie. Maybe Goran knows some real-life people who he considers so damaged that it’s impossible to help them and the right move (in his eyes) is to give up on them.
But perhaps Goran could see the issue better if we took the issue away from Goran’s particular prejudices. Moving it to an anecdote about animals can do that — partly because even people who tend to dislike children (particularly bratty children) often appreciate animals.
So if he can’t appreciate the story of a child who reacts to an abusive situation with abusive attitudes and behaviors, perhaps he would be better able to see that point if demonstrated via animals.
That is *not* to say that humans and animals are on the same plane, or that the issues are entirely comparable. But it’s like when you demonstrate the size of the galaxy by calling a lamp the sun and placing different sizes of balls at various points: It’s something you can wrap your head around even if the original reality is too much for you.
Also, “no one who actually uses their brain would dare compare a disabled person with a disabled dog”? So that little girl without any legs who saw the puppy who was missing a paw and said “Oh! He’s JUST LIKE ME!” was somehow incapable of making a reasonable inference about similarities on an intuitive level? Because I’m pretty sure she just did that, and she was right (also, it was really cute, and I’m glad that the dog made her feel more hopeful about her own situation).
A little amputee girl is welcome to compare her experience to an amputee animal, because she *is an amputee*. If I say to one-armed and/or one-legged kid (or adult), “Hey! Check it out! I own 3-legged dog so I’m going to compare what my dog has been through to human amputees,” that kid might find it a bit condescending and ignorantāand she’d probably be pretty justifiably offended.
My dog has been through a lot, and I have given her a lot of love, assistant and supplements to help her heal and thrive (for nearly 11 years). I carry her up and down her stairs several times a day so she can go pee, because her single functioning hip joint is wearing out.
That *still* gives me no right to make a comparison. A canine amputee and human amputee have pretty different issues to deal with starting with physicsālet alone with how society treats them. They can also heal very differently both inside and outādepending on the limb they lost and the accident.
This does not diminish what my sweet dog has been through nor the love I feel for her nor the love/concern I feel for other human beings. If an amputee person wants to compare herself to my dog, that is her right or choice. But it’s not my place or business to do that at this point in time.
(Also, I’m totally with you on people treating kids like objects they own. That much isn’t in question.)
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why are people son harshly judgemental and quick to give up on a little girl? amanda has some big problems but there is no reason to think they’re unfixable. as far as i know, she hasn’t had any kind of counseling or treatment at all, and if andi is smart enough to get amanda (and andi herself) some help, a good outcome is not inevitable but very possible. nobody deserves to be summarily thrown away.
Because very few totally grok what she’s been through. It comes off as an afterthought or a lie. People would rather see her has a horrible little girl than see the horrible things that happened to her as real.
Also, she has continuously bullied our favorite character so it’s very hard for many people to look further than black and white and see Amanda more than just a villain. It may also make some people go into places they don’t want to…starting to question the lives of their childhood bullies. Rather uncomfortable place to go if you think your world is painted with one paintbrush.
Love it when people use “grok” because sometimes I’m convinced that I only dreamed about learning it somewhere outside my own brain. But it’s a good meaning here, the opposite of superficial, drinking it in until you know it completely.
And yeah, one of the strengths of Selkie is that it’s not written in simple, B&W terms. Perhaps that’s actually the greatest strength, really. The only character I’ve seen be an out-and-out villain so far was the principal, and he had a nice daughter if I recall, so he can’t be too terrible even if we’re only seeing the outside nastiness.
Every other negative character, up to and including Truck and his father, has been redeemed, not in the idealistic and complete-in-one-step way but in a more natural, “I see what you mean now, and I do regret it” sort of way that requires greater time for change.
Amanda has had this development working on her for a long time, and she’s had more ups and downs than I think any other character. It’s taken me a long time to sympathize with her, but yes, this isn’t a binary story, and there’s a great deal of depth to many characters that are easy to stereotype.
It’s an inspiration to me as a writer, just to write humans who are human.
P.S. Wasn’t there a bit in the series M*A*S*H, where Sydney Freedman, the psychiatrist, was considering whether Hawkeye Pierce was mad, and concluded that a person who reacted to abnormal circumstances in a *normal* way would be mad — reacting to abnormal circumstances in an abnormal way made you rational.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOT M*A*S*H
Sidney was one of my favourite characters!
Sydney and Winchester were mine. I actually think the cast change was the best thing that ever happened to that show, and my favorite episodes of all were always the ones where Winchester showed his human side: helping the guy who stuttered realize that he wasn’t dumb, helping the guy who lost his arm to realize that the music was still there inside him, and “the fault was mine; I gave them dessert before they’d even had their dinner” (paraphrase from poor memory)… my favorite really is the tears in his eyes when he tried to explain how much he loved music but could never play it well, so he couldn’t stand to see a musician giving up on his craft.
I imagine a big part of it is Amanda was one of our first antagonists, and it is fun to delight in the suffering of antagonists. that being said, I’m still looking forwards to the day that Selkie and Amanda have a conversation in which they are just each trying to top the other with emotional wounds of the past, rather than adding physical ones to the present.
I think it’s because most writing people are exposed to is binary. Antagonist is = villain, protagonist = virtuous. Antagonist and protagonist really only exist in terms of perspective. The main character(s) followed is the protagonist, the opposing character(s) the antagonist. Villain and virtuous are wholly different concepts. Then there’s nuanced. Amanda, being set up as an antagonist, is immediately cast as a villain, a dark, evil force since most literature we’re exposed to operates on this binary paradigm. Selkie gets the opposite treatment, where we have given rather unpleasant behavior a pass due to the protagonist therefore virtuous confusion. The story can be easily switched to Amanda’s point of view at the start and we’d think of Selkie as a cruel monster and possibly even have some individuals develop an opinion she is utilizing her minority status to her advantage.
The writing here is far more complex, and with little exposure to complex writing, seeing people dislike Amanda as a calculating villain as opposed to a hurt little girl that needs therapy and stability is not a surprise.
I had a Captain America moment when I read the transcript note;
“I did! I got that reference!”
Poor Amanda. I wonder if Andi will consider taking her daughter to a child phychologist. That might help with the anger issues.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ThereAreNoTherapists
We have actually seen therapists mentioned before, with Truck.
I have always likes this comic, but I like it more after reading that transcript! XD
You mean it’s pronounced “To-ee-tim-eh”?
“It’s TEH-A-TIM-EH!”, awww RIP Sir Terry.
On another note, Andi is doing very well – acknowledging the error, but still setting boundaries for the kid.
I still feel bummed out when I remember he’s left us.
I love his books so much… š
Don’t take a swing at anyone!
Don’t forget, Amanda and Selkie are half-sisters now, they just don’t know it. They have a father in common. I can’t wait for THAT realization to happen. I’m not sure which one will react worse to that news.
This is quite important. Andi still needs to learn what Amanda Marie’s limits and triggers are, and until she does and finds out how to counter the worst ones, keeping the secret about Todd a secret may actually be wise.
Andi is handling this situation very well (especially considering the emotional chaos she’s experiencing herself right know, leave alone Amanda’s emotional chaos). She’s already actively meeting two of “A kid’s 12 requirements for their parents” and didn’t fail any of the other ten so far: http://www.dr-michael-pelz.de/12_forderungen_eines_kindes_an_seine_eltern.html
It’s a German text, I’m sorry. I’ll translate the two requirements I have in mind:
7. Don’t make overhasty promises! – If you don’t keep your promises, I’ll feel awfully abandoned.
(Okay, there was an overhasty promise, but at least she is keeping it)
11. Don’t assume, it would be beneath you, to apologize to me! – Honest apologies make me feel loved and appreciated.
and another one, cause I like it the best:
4. Don’t be taken aback, if I tell you “I hate you”! – It’s not you I’m hating, but your power to foil my plans.
This list sits on my wall for at least ten years by now (not always the same wall – I moved four times – but still the same printout), and I hope that I’ll meet all of these requirements when I have children myself and that I already meet them in regard to my niece and nephew.
Thank you for the link. I would love to see the translations of the rest of the list. I’m hoping to be a parent in the near future and any help I can get would be greatly appreciated. Foster care did a great job teaching me what not to do, but I’ve had precious little of the right way taught to me. x.x
Here you go:
“A Kid’s 12 requirements for their parents
(by Lucia Feider)
1. Don’t spoil me!
I do know, that I can’t get everything – I’m just going to test you.
2. Don’t be afraid of standing up to my tantrums!
Your steadiness is important to me, because it will give me confidence.
3. Don’t scold me while others are around, if it can be avoided!
I’ll care more about your words, if you talk to me quietly and in private.
4. Donāt be taken aback, if I tell you āI hate youā!
Itās not you Iām hating, but your power to foil my plans.
5. Don’t shield me from all the consequences of my actions!
I’ll have to experience some awkward and painful moments as well, to mature.
6. Don’t complain constantly!
If you do, I’ll defend myself by turning a deaf ear on you.
7. Donāt make overhasty promises!
If you donāt keep your promises, Iāll feel awfully abandoned.
8. Don’t act inconsistently!
It will make me feel insecure and I’ll loose my trust in you.
9. Don’t interrupt me and listen to me, when I have questions!
Otherwise I will turn to other people to get the information I want.
10. Don’t make fun of my fears!
They are terrifyingly real. But you can help me by trying to take me seriously.
11. Donāt assume, it would be beneath you, to apologize to me!
Honest apologies make me feel loved and appreciated.
12. Don’t try to act like you were perfect or infallible!
It will be a big shock to me, when I realize that you are not.
I grow up rather quick and it’s hard for you to keep up with me. But each day you are trying, is a precious one.
——————————————
It took me several hours and caused several headaches (especially #2), but it also was a lot of fun.
I did my very best to preserve the statements and to not violate grammar, and I’m open to improvements.
Many thank you’s! I will hang this on my wall. If only more American parents lived by these…
Updated a few of the translations:
2. Don’t be afraid of standing up to my tantrums!
A firm attitude is important to me, because it will make me feel safe.
3. Don’t scold me while others are around, if it can be avoided!
I’ll care more about what you tell me, if you talk to me quietly and in private.
6. Don’t complain constantly!
If you do, I’ll protect myself by turning a deaf ear on you.
7. Donāt make overhasty promises!
If you donāt keep your promises, Iāll feel awfully betrayed.
11. Donāt assume apologizing to me would be beneath you!
Honest apologies make me feel loved and appreciated.
12. Don’t try to act like you were perfect or infallible!
It will be a big shock to me, once I realize that you are not.
_______________________________________________________
I think those are better (grammar and semantics) although #2 is still the most troublesome
I don’t think anyone’s pointed it out yet but…if the 2nd panel is supposed to be Andi’s right arm (the same one being pushed away in panel 3) then her hand is backwards.
…I’m not so sure every child can be saved. I grew up in an abusive home. There were times where I’d be taken away temporarily and put in “Safe Homes” for kids. People don’t care when someone over age 12 is abused, so you just go back. CPS, the cops, your teachers, no one cares unless you’re a cute little child.
Most of the kids in those safe homes were basically prisoners from murdering their parents (for various reasons.) Some of them couldn’t even read or write.
[Probably SPOILER]
I kind of, uh, had a sudden epiphany on how Amanda got the scars on her arms and legs. Remember the story about the King and the Queen and the brother princes who stole into the room of the princess, and chopped off her legs and arms when she tattled to Queen and King? And how Queen and King didn’t believe her, and locked her in a tower?
… uh. Dave? No way you’re confirming, right? xD
I get that she screamed ‘toys’ as a a way to get her away from the previous situation ,but by this point, she shouldn’t be using it to reward bad behavior.
At lunch, Amanda told them that after school she was going toy shopping with her mother. The toys thing is not new. It was promised to her before she even went to school. It’s not good to break your promises. If she said “as long as you’re good, I’ll take you toy shopping after school”, then she could take away something that has already been promised. But as far as we can tell, this was an un-hedged promise, so Andi has to follow through. Especially as she has yet to earn Amanda’s trust.
Amanda is not being rewarded. Andi is choosing to follow through on a promise that was already made.
There’s a book by Robert A Heinlein called Starship Troopers (very little in common with the show or movie). In training, the main character watches one of the training officers get chewed out for letting a cadet land a punch on him. While the cadet broke a rule, the officer was also held responsible, because the officer failed to make sure the punch never got started, let alone never landed. Amanda is under a lot of stress right now. Her excitement is masking it, but it’s still there. We’re not sure if Amanda punched her, or just pushed her arm out of the way. Either way, what Amanda did was a reflexive action, not a calculated one. And, we can infer from the conversation, that the boundary she crossed was not actually set up beforehand. You can’t blame a child for breaking a rule she doesn’t know exists.
She doesn’t deserve to be rewarded, no. But taking the shopping trip away would be a punishment, which she definitely doesn’t deserve. Plus, she needs the clothes, furniture, and toys. She won’t feel completely at home until she has her own stuff.
If you want to read about dealing with adopted and “damaged” children. Read David Gerrold’s “The Martian Child.” Avoid the James Caan movie, David refuses to acknowledge the movie’s existence.