He’ll know…
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Fanart update! I’m a bit late in sharing this, but Tailsteak from Forward chose Selkie as an Inktober subject a bit back.
Thank you, Tailsteak!
(Content notice: comic contains anxiety, prostitutes, and philosophy.)
"please don't get me fire, please don't get me fired"
Oh Yay, early comic!
At least Jesse let Selkie explain a bit before continuing to give her advice. Great job Dave!
Wow, that could not have gone better.
^Seconding the above comments. Jessie offered to advise but left it open so Selkie could say no, offered more appropriate and good advice once she realized what was actually happening, and indirectly apologized to Todd. It’s cathartic in the middle of all this #drama.
Yeah I don’t know why people are getting mad about an adult making a fair but incorrect read of a situation and doing there best to handle it. Buying flowers for someone is generally a romantic gesture outside family not dumb to read it as gay when she showed no malice or teasing towards Te Fahn after the fact. Frankly the amount of ire toward Ms Flower is insane considering how little backlash the principle got for causing the whole situation by not removing the greeting card or doing any prep work before entering the class.
Because literally thinking a kid is gay for one small thing is kind of a giant reach. It’s also gross to label a kid’s interests over one small thing. Most of us hate when people jump to that kind of assumption.
Especially when they should know better than that. Jessie’s a grown up. She should know that assuming things with flimsy evidence isn’t cool.
Except she didn’t immediately assume Selkie was gay. She assumed Selkie was in the process of realizing that she *might like girls*, based on the fact that, as far as Jessie knew, she had just bought flowers for another girl. And as a queer adult, she made the decision *she* probably wished someone had made for her, to reach out and offer advice on what would have been, if Selkie *was* actually questioning, a very confusing time in her life.
Elementary teacher here.
This is an inappropriate conversation in a multitude of ways. Jessie would lose her job if admin found out.
How so?
Yeah I’d like to know that too. Because the only reasons I could think of boil down to a school having a “no sex Ed” policy and homophobic regulations like the don’t ask don’t tell stuff the armed forces pushed. Why would asking a child if they have questions about there situation and the bullying they are receiving be against school policy?
Because it’s not appropriate to ask a student about their sexual orientation? Even if it’s just implied in the conversation.
You don’t start a conversation with a child that is only about dealing with bullies with, “Do you have any questions?” That’s an indirect invitation for an entirely separate conversation that is wildly inappropriate to have with an 8 year old.
Even if Selkie herself approached Jessie and said, “Ms. Flower, I am a lesbian who is very attracted to the girls in my class – how do I handle that,” the only correct answer would be, “That’s a conversation to have with your parents.”
Hm, gross!
Not really. It’s professionalism. What business of it is mine whether a student is gay, straight, or other?
I’m not losing my job over a conversation that is, quite frankly, none of my business. If Jessie wants to take that risk, it’s on her. Definitely considered a really, really bad idea in the teaching profession.
HypotheticallyWhat if the student came to you, said they had a crush on another boy/girl, and that they were *afraid* to tell their parents?
Seems to me that you/your school’s policy doesn’t account for that, and that’s something that I’m afraid is disturbingly common.
So it is the homophobia fuelled don’t ask don’t tell because sex is a school issue. Sex Ed, policing sexual misconduct and harassment. If they can’t talk about orientation they can’t stop people from using it to bully. “Not my business.” If she being mocked by the whole school for possibly being into girls it absolutely is your business because dealing with bullying is part of your job and that means dealing with the causes. Be it racism sexism or homophobia whatever the cause. Saying your not allowed to talk about it mean you telling all the others students it is something wrong and worthy of harassment.
@Rater202: Sometimes kids aren’t even sure if it’s a bad idea to tell their parents, too. I’ve known multiple people who indicated their queerness to parents at a young age (such as saying, “I think I have a crush on so-and-so”) and had their parents respond with physical abuse and/or conversion therapy.
A blanket redirect to the parents is a really bad idea.
Not sure how it is in America, but in Europe a teacher’s job is teaching notions.
I understand how families would like teachers to be free therapists, but they’re not. And in these situations, the wrong conversation can be very, very harmful.
As someone who works in legal business, I have to agree with Zach, and add that a teacher engaging in a similar conversation with an eight year old is courting all sorts of trouble.
I’m not saying she’s doing something that might actually get her fined or jailed or held to damages, but that there’s a very real possibility that zealous parents or a prosecutor or the disciplinary committee could drag her in court, and while eventually she might be found innocent, that costs money, time, and most importantly, reputation.
No one should be required to put her life at such risk, or deemed a bad teacher if she doesn’t. Self-sacrifice is a choice, not something you can impose upon someone.
Best answer you can give if you want to help and keep yourself out of trouble, might be something along the lines “I can’t talk to you about you giving flowers to your schoolmate. Have you got anyone to speak about that you trust? If not, l can try to find you someone (give her a contact to a volunteer service). I can, however, stop the bullying. Let me know if it continues.”
Not how it is in Canada. We introduced SOGI 123 which are teachers resources as well as making sure projects and classrooms have diversity in them. Things like having posters with a variety of family types instead of always straight white parents. Basically having the schools reflect the students and staff within.
We also are reducing gendered language in some areas. Like instead of “bellow boys and girls” one would use “hello students/everyone”.
Well, at least this misunderstanding got cleared up.
Setting up sitcom style plotlines that would drag on then going lol nope we resolve that now is kind of Dave’s thing, I’m really loving it. 😀
Wow, Tailsteak actually reads this comic? He’s easily in my top three webcomic artists and has been for some time, primarily because he allows his characters to debate things that modern society considers taboo subjects, without anyone really losing their head, and he often comes up with unique perspectives.
I recently commissioned him to make a character design for me for an upcoming graphic novel fan project (the theme of the month, which knocks half off the price of a commission, was character sheets / model sheets, so I jumped at the chance, and I’m really pleased with how it turned out). The guy’s got a lot of skill and a lot to say, and I highly recommend giving Leftover Soup (his previous comic) a read (if you’re not too offended by adult content).
Continuing the conversation here.
Let me also reiterate that I am an elementary Ed teacher, first year, in an incredibly liberal area of the country. I work for a district that prides itself on its progressiveness, to the point that we have signs in every hallway in the building promoting tolerance in the realm of race, religion, sexuality, and gender.
Even in this district, I would get in monumental amounts of trouble if I decided to start a conversation with one of my students about their sexuality. Some of you don’t seem to understand the role the teacher actually plays – I am at the mercy of parents and administrators for just about everything I do. Every single thing I say will be scrutinized, taken out of context, and used against me if need be. That is why I would never take the risk of having a conversation like this, under basically any circumstances at all.
All it takes is a single parent complaining that I am having inappropriate conversations with a student and I would be done. Kaput. Blacklisted from the profession entirely. This is in no small part due to the fact that I am a male. Then, I can’t help anyone and the problem isn’t solved. I can do more good working from behind the scenes to promote a welcoming and responsive classroom than I can dealing with the issue head on. I know that isn’t want some of you want to hear, but teaching is a much more political issue than you think.
So no, I would never have conversations like this. There are plenty of other ways to handle bullying, and if a student was insistent that they did not want to have this conversation with their parents, then I would refer them to the school social worker or psychologist, who *can* have that conversation with them in a safe space.
But Jessie is a fucking student teacher – an admin would go apeshit over this.
Happy to answer any other general questions.
I understand the role teachers play. I think there’s a major difference between “I would get in trouble for this” and “this is inappropriate conversation in a multitude of ways.”
I also have a different stance on the student having to be insistent about parents before you’d offer alternative resources, but I’m glad you at least would.
Jessie also didn’t say, “Are you gay?” but did create an opening for Selkie to talk about it if she wanted. That, to me, is massively different. I would agree that asking a student about their sexual orientation would be inappropriate, but letting a student know that they can talk to you about the topic? That’s basically the point of those “safe space” stickers, and I see them in plenty of schools.
Everything you just said is part of the problem. I am aware that teaching is a political issue that’s why I find the altitude that they will be punished for approaching a student who is being actively bullied disgusting. The issue is not the reality of the situation in schools currently the issue is how you seem to speak of these things as if they are correct and immutable and not something people should be working to change. The fact you will have bigitoed parents going off the deep end is part of why it’s so important that the school is a place these things get discussed. You can’t forward a student to appropriate support groups and councilors if you can’t even try to figure out what’s actually going on. Jessie with her knowledge of Todd from previous interaction as a more open minded parents went to him with her suspicions first and after a day of consistent and unmitigated harassment approached Selkie with a vague question and an offering of support. This is in every way the correct way to act. I am not arguing the reality of the school administration being more interested in protecting their jobs then the student in their care. My argument is that you speak as if that’s normal and valid. Its not. Its something actively being worked against by marginalized people.
If you think that, as a male teacher, I am in favor of the way the system works, then I don’t think you actually read what I wrote. I understand your anger, but don’t come at me with it.
I think Yumi summarized the issue pretty well in her opening paragraph. There is some serious issues with how you chose to word your comments, ‘inappropriate’. Not an unfortunate reality but as a moral miss step. Your painting a picture of its wrong and don’t talk to me or expect open support because you just mite get me fired. What kind of message is that to give out to children? Your not saying anything in support of the bullied you only talk about the risk to you and yours. “As a male the risk to my chosen profession is too great” Ok so what happens to the bullied then?
@kitenkaiba: While I’m not in favour of these kind of zero-tolerance policies either, flip it to a different “hot-button” subject. Imagine a child about Selkie’s age whom a teacher overhears talking a lot about death and what happens after we die, and maybe getting made fun of for bringing up these ideas. Also imagine the teacher is a Scientologist who decides to approach the student and talk to them about Xenmu and Thetans. (I’m not *necessarily* trying to pick on Scientology in particular; I am using them as an example.) Should K-12 teachers be allowed to discuss another sensitive topic like religion with children?
I have a related personal example: When I was in fourth grade my teacher went around the room and asked every student what religion they were because she’d overheard some students talking to each other about their families’ religions and church activities. My family was functionally agnostic, but I said I was Moravian because I knew I’d been baptized Moravian. The teacher said that was not a real religion and that I was making it up. Nine-year-old me said that my parents belonged to a Moravian church when we lived in Pennsylvania (Moravianism is a sect of Protestantism that originated in Germany/Eastern Europe and is very common in Pennsylvania Dutch Country, where I was born). She then said I was a liar and probably an atheist.
Both of my parents paid a visit to the teacher and school administration the next day. The teacher left at the end of the school year…I don’t think it was voluntary.
I really wish there were more services for Queer youth and youth who are bullied and just questioning things in general. I also certainly do not support arbitrary “gag rules” on teachers. However, I also think there need to be some guidelines to protect BOTH teachers and students. As far as I can recall, Selkie has never even thought about the possibility of romantically liking girls. What if Jesse opening up this line of inquiry is upsetting for her? And, while Jesse obviously has nothing but the best intentions towards her students, that is not true of every teacher out there.
This is one of the many reasons why I choose to teach at the college level. While there are absolutely codes of conduct for college professors, my students are adults and therefore I am allowed to discuss topics with them that would be completely off-limits with K-12 students. For example, I have had several students come out to me as Queer; they often also have questions or want to ask my advice about various things. My college (also in a very liberal part of the country) actively encourages faculty to take the “Safe Space” training during which we’re taught how to establish Queer-safe spaces in our offices and classrooms and how to respond to students with questions or issues regarding their sexuality and/or gender identity.
My sister’s field is K-12 ed and, while she is currently teaching art education at the college level (teaching future K-12 teacher how to teach), she is also certified to teach K-12 (I forget the details of her specific certifications, like subjects and grade levels – I think she is certified for the lower grade levels, not high school, but I could be wrong). During her certification process she had to put in a certain number of hours of student teaching at a local elementary school. She almost got in a LOT of trouble because once, while consoling an upset student, she very briefly touched the student’s head in a soothing gesture. Any kind of physical contact is a HUGE no-no. My sister convinced her supervising teacher that it was an automatic response and she would never do it again (she never did).
Zach, you would know a LOT more about this than I do, but aren’t these policies in place partially because of the potential of lawsuits and such at public schools? When I was astounded that my sister almost got kicked out of her placement for barely stroking a crying student’s head, she explained to me that an observer (or even the child themself, if they misunderstood her intent) could have reported that as sexually inappropriate, even though it wasn’t, and gotten both her and the entire school in a *lot* of trouble. I can also see how a more lenient policy could be be be exploited by creepers (I do NOT mean you, Zach!). For example, a creepy teacher saying to a female-identified student: “I notice you spend a lot of time with Sarah. Do you think you might like girls? Do you ever have thoughts about kissing girls? I think it might help you if you talked to me about those thoughts…” etc. *ICK*
Question: Isn’t Selkie at a private or semi-private school? Again, Zach, you’d know better than me, but my understanding is that private schools have more freedom to set their own regulations (which can be very good in some cases but also lead to abuse or just a lower quality of education of experience in other cases).
Again, early on I made the decision that I ONLY wanted to teach adults…
I doubt it’s a private school for the simple fact a state wouldn’t want to pay private school fees for every child in custody at that orphanage. I believe it’s just a liberal-minded public school. (They do exist! One of the public schools in my area just announced LGBTQ safe bathrooms system-wide, and gave rainbow t-shirts to the schools to pass out to show support and awareness and to try to limit bullying)