This is sadly like Lily’s sister, Petunia, writing Albus Dumbledore, begging to be allowed in to Hogwarts. Albus was a little more diplomatic about it, but the end result will be the same.
I mean, at least in the world building so far there is reasonable expectation that humans and Sarnoti have exchanged information regarding some things like that, and I bet ya that the first thing humans did when they found out about echos they tried to see if there were any within humanity
BUT, since echos are tied tightly to the religious and spiritual lives of the Sarnoti, I wouldn’t put it past a good writer to be able to implement that as a plot point somewhere in the future, Selkie is being put in a pedestal as a chosen one, I don’t see why Amanda couldn’t possibly probably gain some insight about this same thing considering she’s being poised as the main antagonist both spiritually and thematically given the current plot.
BUT BUT, this is just rambling speculation at 4:26 am… I don’t think it’s unlikely, but I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility.
You use words very glibly. But I don’t understand; sleep, what is this thing? Sleep? I’m not sure I have one/some/any…. Sure as h*ll didn’t find any last night.
If you find some, please consider selling some to me. Because! I’m not sure what it is any more.
“and I bet ya that the first thing humans did when they found out about echos they tried to see if there were any within humanity”
Perhaps but that ability seems to be rare even among Sarnothi. Meanwhile they couldn’t have tested too many humans because until just now the existence of the Sarnothi was a closely guarded secret. Also I doubt any humans would have discovered this ability on their own. Doesn’t it have a technological aspect? If I understood right (and I may not have) isn’t it based on an energy produced by some sort of Sarnothi technology which a small number of Sarnothi then have a natural ability to channel? If so then without any exposure to Sarnothi technology generations of human echos could have lived and died without ever knowing there was anything special about them.
Well it’s not like the general concept is new to humanity. The ideas of magic in general as well as magic-enabled people in a civic role are both older than recorded history, and found in pretty much every culture. “Echoes” are basically what “shamen” would have evolved into if their magic actually worked.
Stuff that works competitively gets used. Even if they were extraordinarily rare, being actually useful in tangible, reliable, non-trival ways would give them serious value. If humans could produce Echoes, they’d be not only known, but already baked into all of our cultures (or at least, all the surviving ones) like they are with the Sarnothi. Not as a legacy concept evoked by boardwalk fortune tellers, gurus, and other fringes, but on the same level as engineers, doctors, generals and the like.
A lot of stuff that doesn’t work also becomes embedded in cultures because it coincidentally appeared to work once. If it happened to rain after you did this dance, it may become a “rain dance.” And there is an evolved reaction to intermittent rewards that reinforces this: if you found edible berries on a bush once, it pays to keep checking for more berries even if they are often not there. The problem is that this is a primitive reaction that does not account for costs and odds – and so, if a 1$ lottery ticket paid off $500 once, there is a great temptation to use all your money buying more lottery tickets, even though on the average it takes over $1,000 to get a $500 win. Most people will stop short of gambling the rent or grocery money, but some become “addicted”.
Or a sick person happened to recover after prayer, some ritual, eating something weird and disgusting, or even after drawing blood. So they tried the same with the next patient, and it “worked” again – because most patients will recover on their own, unless the “treatment” is too harmful… And to further confuse medical researchers, some herbs actually do help certain conditions if you get the dose right. Even drawing blood might temporarily alleviate certain symptoms – although it’s as difficult to account for how 18th Century doctors came to treat everything by bleeding, as to understand a person that draws out their life savings in quarters and heads to the slot machines!
True, but that’s completely unrelated to both what I was saying and Mikael’s question.
My point was that, to put it glibly: you can deduce that humans can’t produce Echoes from the fact that we don’t have Echoes. If we could produce people with real powers that useful, even extremely rarely, they would be deeply woven into our history and cultural evolution.
IRL this is one of the more compelling arguments against psychic powers as natural phenomena. If our biology could and did randomly produce telekinetics, even rarely, natural selection would have long ago made it as ordinary as having eyes.
Doesn’t rule out that while a sarnothi echo has to generate the resonance, a human might be able to tap into it – something that might not have come up before since this is the first time a lot of humans and sarnothi are in close promixity.
Not saying it’s gonna happen or even that I want it to happen (Amanda needs to learn she can’t have everything Selkie has) but with the way characters are dismissing it outright it does seem like a possible future twist.
Meta-knowledge.
Dave’s mentioned that the original plan was Sarnothi Echoes were Waterbenders, there was a race of skyfaring Firebenders, and Humans were Earthbenders that lost track of the Hows… but Todd qualified and discovered the secret as part of raising Selkie.
It might not be so far-fetched that Todd’s Daughter is the one who works out Humanity’s Reverberation or whatever out of sheer “HOW DARE SELKIE HAVE SOMETHING I DON’T TRAIN ME ANYWAY AND I’LL GET MY OWN MAGIC POWERS WITH CHOCOLATE AND CHICKEN NUGGETS”.
I think Amanda is about to learn that so few Sarnothi can channel echo power that the ones who can are looked up to and greatly respected–almost like royalty in some respects, which would make Selkie something like a Sarnothi…..Princess…..
Sweet, delicious, schadenfreude. I shall enjoy it while I can because I’d histories any indication Amanda won’t be down for long and Selkie will likely suffer because of it.
Only some humans posses the skills and knowledge, but absent physical or mental disabilities it’s at least possible for a person to learn how if they tried.
Being an Echo? Not so much, that one appears to be an innate quality.
Different minds work in different ways. It’s not possible for every human to learn to think in the ways required to do the high-level science, math, engineering, etc. Some humans don’t have the capacity. It actually takes an IQ of 110+ to engage with those topics in a practical and safe way. 100 is average. So your average human can’t do it.
Note: not all jobs created by STEM fields require STEM familiarity to do them. Plenty of people were able to work the factories without understanding how to design a factory, or design the product that they were making in the factory.
I agree. Not only that — IQ is a huge oversimplification. Brains are much more complicated than a single number; not everyone with a high IQ is equipped to excel in the STEM fields. A genius-level writer may never be able to master abstract logic.
Hmm- true enough. Perhaps it’s more like musical talent? Some people have it, some don’t. My mum plays guitar and keyboard, whereas I pick out a tune looking like Mozart’s impression of Salieri.
Yes and no. As I said some people have innate limitations that would prevent them from being able to perform the tasks or ontain the skills, but in general most people could, with a reasonable amount of time and access to the necessary parts and information, build a simple computer. Kids have done it in games like Minecraft, the basics are not particularly hard. Now, the vast majority of people won’t be able to single handedly produce the equivalent of a modern PC, but that has more to do with the resources and tools required rather than innate individual limitations. Given enough time and resources it remains technically possible for most people to do it. The limitations are practical not inherent.
Being an Echo appears at least to be different. Either you are one or you aren’t. You can’t learn to be one, you can’t work hard to become one. No amount of time and resources will make one an Echo.
“It’s not possible for every human to learn to think in the ways required to do the high-level science, math, engineering, etc.”
And your evidence for this is what?
I am going to assume that by every you mean “an average”. If you really mean every then sure, someone with massive brain damage probably cannot do these things. That’s a bit too obvious to be worth stating though right?
Ask someone who works in these fields how they got there. I guarantee you the answer isn’t going to be “well I was just born with this special ability”. Instead it will involve a lot of work and dedication. They sacrificed a lot to gain the knowledge and abilities they needed. No doubt most of them spent many nights studying while there peers were out being young and having fun.
Most don’t want to work in those fields or at least if they do they don’t want it bad enough to work that hard for that long to get it. That doesn’t mean that they couldn’t if they were so motivated.
No, don’t ask someone who works in these fields how they got there. Yes, they will know that they needed training and hard work, but they will not know what it is about their brain that allowed them to benefit from the training and hard work. To them, that is just how brains are. They have no experience of a brain that works differently.
Instead, ask someone who wanted to work in those fields, tried to put in the hard work, but could never get the hang of it.
If you don’t have the aptitude to start with, no amount of wanting or working hard will help — you can’t even grasp what the trainers are saying.
Until the dolphins get thumbs and opposable fingers, we cant say for sure.
But until that day, I’m keeping Brin’s “Sundiver” in my backpack. Im not saying they could or couldn’t, I’m just saying I’m keeping the jury in deliberations until they get the enhansements.
yep, from how she “asked” him to teach her how to do the “glowing eyes thing” right now Amanda thinks that TEHK was the one that did the glowing eyes thing, not Selkie!… ooohh, how that’s going to spin her up when she finds THAT out!
I find it amusing because Tehk is laughing at the thought of humans learning to become Echoes… when 99% of Sarnothi can’t be Echoes either (it’s a born trait), so in effect he’s equal to Amanda in that limitation.
Well, there’s SOMETHING coming out of her eyes right now…
More like steam outta her ears.
This is sadly like Lily’s sister, Petunia, writing Albus Dumbledore, begging to be allowed in to Hogwarts. Albus was a little more diplomatic about it, but the end result will be the same.
‘fraid you’re right, Ed Rhodes. Still, if looks could maim, Tehk would be leaving in a basket.
Well, the large parts in the basket, … If there were any large parts left. In that last frame, I’m thinking zip-locks.
How do they know they can’t? It’s unlikely anyone tried or could have done enough research to rule that out.
I mean, at least in the world building so far there is reasonable expectation that humans and Sarnoti have exchanged information regarding some things like that, and I bet ya that the first thing humans did when they found out about echos they tried to see if there were any within humanity
BUT, since echos are tied tightly to the religious and spiritual lives of the Sarnoti, I wouldn’t put it past a good writer to be able to implement that as a plot point somewhere in the future, Selkie is being put in a pedestal as a chosen one, I don’t see why Amanda couldn’t possibly probably gain some insight about this same thing considering she’s being poised as the main antagonist both spiritually and thematically given the current plot.
BUT BUT, this is just rambling speculation at 4:26 am… I don’t think it’s unlikely, but I wouldn’t dismiss the possibility.
I gotta get some sleep…
You use words very glibly. But I don’t understand; sleep, what is this thing? Sleep? I’m not sure I have one/some/any…. Sure as h*ll didn’t find any last night.
If you find some, please consider selling some to me. Because! I’m not sure what it is any more.
“and I bet ya that the first thing humans did when they found out about echos they tried to see if there were any within humanity”
Perhaps but that ability seems to be rare even among Sarnothi. Meanwhile they couldn’t have tested too many humans because until just now the existence of the Sarnothi was a closely guarded secret. Also I doubt any humans would have discovered this ability on their own. Doesn’t it have a technological aspect? If I understood right (and I may not have) isn’t it based on an energy produced by some sort of Sarnothi technology which a small number of Sarnothi then have a natural ability to channel? If so then without any exposure to Sarnothi technology generations of human echos could have lived and died without ever knowing there was anything special about them.
It’s what their tech is based on, but The source is something like Gaia, I think. If it were tech based, they’d loose the ability which distance.
Well it’s not like the general concept is new to humanity. The ideas of magic in general as well as magic-enabled people in a civic role are both older than recorded history, and found in pretty much every culture. “Echoes” are basically what “shamen” would have evolved into if their magic actually worked.
Stuff that works competitively gets used. Even if they were extraordinarily rare, being actually useful in tangible, reliable, non-trival ways would give them serious value. If humans could produce Echoes, they’d be not only known, but already baked into all of our cultures (or at least, all the surviving ones) like they are with the Sarnothi. Not as a legacy concept evoked by boardwalk fortune tellers, gurus, and other fringes, but on the same level as engineers, doctors, generals and the like.
A lot of stuff that doesn’t work also becomes embedded in cultures because it coincidentally appeared to work once. If it happened to rain after you did this dance, it may become a “rain dance.” And there is an evolved reaction to intermittent rewards that reinforces this: if you found edible berries on a bush once, it pays to keep checking for more berries even if they are often not there. The problem is that this is a primitive reaction that does not account for costs and odds – and so, if a 1$ lottery ticket paid off $500 once, there is a great temptation to use all your money buying more lottery tickets, even though on the average it takes over $1,000 to get a $500 win. Most people will stop short of gambling the rent or grocery money, but some become “addicted”.
Or a sick person happened to recover after prayer, some ritual, eating something weird and disgusting, or even after drawing blood. So they tried the same with the next patient, and it “worked” again – because most patients will recover on their own, unless the “treatment” is too harmful… And to further confuse medical researchers, some herbs actually do help certain conditions if you get the dose right. Even drawing blood might temporarily alleviate certain symptoms – although it’s as difficult to account for how 18th Century doctors came to treat everything by bleeding, as to understand a person that draws out their life savings in quarters and heads to the slot machines!
True, but that’s completely unrelated to both what I was saying and Mikael’s question.
My point was that, to put it glibly: you can deduce that humans can’t produce Echoes from the fact that we don’t have Echoes. If we could produce people with real powers that useful, even extremely rarely, they would be deeply woven into our history and cultural evolution.
IRL this is one of the more compelling arguments against psychic powers as natural phenomena. If our biology could and did randomly produce telekinetics, even rarely, natural selection would have long ago made it as ordinary as having eyes.
Doesn’t rule out that while a sarnothi echo has to generate the resonance, a human might be able to tap into it – something that might not have come up before since this is the first time a lot of humans and sarnothi are in close promixity.
Not saying it’s gonna happen or even that I want it to happen (Amanda needs to learn she can’t have everything Selkie has) but with the way characters are dismissing it outright it does seem like a possible future twist.
Meta-knowledge.
Dave’s mentioned that the original plan was Sarnothi Echoes were Waterbenders, there was a race of skyfaring Firebenders, and Humans were Earthbenders that lost track of the Hows… but Todd qualified and discovered the secret as part of raising Selkie.
It might not be so far-fetched that Todd’s Daughter is the one who works out Humanity’s Reverberation or whatever out of sheer “HOW DARE SELKIE HAVE SOMETHING I DON’T TRAIN ME ANYWAY AND I’LL GET MY OWN MAGIC POWERS WITH CHOCOLATE AND CHICKEN NUGGETS”.
“In fact, forget the magic and the nuggets!”
I think Amanda is about to learn that so few Sarnothi can channel echo power that the ones who can are looked up to and greatly respected–almost like royalty in some respects, which would make Selkie something like a Sarnothi…..Princess…..
I foresee fireworks. ^
Looks like Amanda is getting her just desserts for trying to be such a bratty mean little sneak.
I know, and it is DELICIOUS.
Sweet, delicious, schadenfreude. I shall enjoy it while I can because I’d histories any indication Amanda won’t be down for long and Selkie will likely suffer because of it.
I really hope that eventually changes. Tv Tropes: Karma Houdini is really fitting Amanda so far.
Well only humans can make computers, and even then only some humans.
Electronic computers, I mean. Assuming Echo tech isn’t secretly electronics.
Only some humans posses the skills and knowledge, but absent physical or mental disabilities it’s at least possible for a person to learn how if they tried.
Being an Echo? Not so much, that one appears to be an innate quality.
Different minds work in different ways. It’s not possible for every human to learn to think in the ways required to do the high-level science, math, engineering, etc. Some humans don’t have the capacity. It actually takes an IQ of 110+ to engage with those topics in a practical and safe way. 100 is average. So your average human can’t do it.
Note: not all jobs created by STEM fields require STEM familiarity to do them. Plenty of people were able to work the factories without understanding how to design a factory, or design the product that they were making in the factory.
I agree. Not only that — IQ is a huge oversimplification. Brains are much more complicated than a single number; not everyone with a high IQ is equipped to excel in the STEM fields. A genius-level writer may never be able to master abstract logic.
Hmm- true enough. Perhaps it’s more like musical talent? Some people have it, some don’t. My mum plays guitar and keyboard, whereas I pick out a tune looking like Mozart’s impression of Salieri.
Yes and no. As I said some people have innate limitations that would prevent them from being able to perform the tasks or ontain the skills, but in general most people could, with a reasonable amount of time and access to the necessary parts and information, build a simple computer. Kids have done it in games like Minecraft, the basics are not particularly hard. Now, the vast majority of people won’t be able to single handedly produce the equivalent of a modern PC, but that has more to do with the resources and tools required rather than innate individual limitations. Given enough time and resources it remains technically possible for most people to do it. The limitations are practical not inherent.
Being an Echo appears at least to be different. Either you are one or you aren’t. You can’t learn to be one, you can’t work hard to become one. No amount of time and resources will make one an Echo.
“It’s not possible for every human to learn to think in the ways required to do the high-level science, math, engineering, etc.”
And your evidence for this is what?
I am going to assume that by every you mean “an average”. If you really mean every then sure, someone with massive brain damage probably cannot do these things. That’s a bit too obvious to be worth stating though right?
Ask someone who works in these fields how they got there. I guarantee you the answer isn’t going to be “well I was just born with this special ability”. Instead it will involve a lot of work and dedication. They sacrificed a lot to gain the knowledge and abilities they needed. No doubt most of them spent many nights studying while there peers were out being young and having fun.
Most don’t want to work in those fields or at least if they do they don’t want it bad enough to work that hard for that long to get it. That doesn’t mean that they couldn’t if they were so motivated.
No, don’t ask someone who works in these fields how they got there. Yes, they will know that they needed training and hard work, but they will not know what it is about their brain that allowed them to benefit from the training and hard work. To them, that is just how brains are. They have no experience of a brain that works differently.
Instead, ask someone who wanted to work in those fields, tried to put in the hard work, but could never get the hang of it.
If you don’t have the aptitude to start with, no amount of wanting or working hard will help — you can’t even grasp what the trainers are saying.
Until the dolphins get thumbs and opposable fingers, we cant say for sure.
But until that day, I’m keeping Brin’s “Sundiver” in my backpack. Im not saying they could or couldn’t, I’m just saying I’m keeping the jury in deliberations until they get the enhansements.
Wait til she realizes the only one in her immediate vicinity who can do that is Selkie. -cackles-
yep, from how she “asked” him to teach her how to do the “glowing eyes thing” right now Amanda thinks that TEHK was the one that did the glowing eyes thing, not Selkie!… ooohh, how that’s going to spin her up when she finds THAT out!
I find it amusing because Tehk is laughing at the thought of humans learning to become Echoes… when 99% of Sarnothi can’t be Echoes either (it’s a born trait), so in effect he’s equal to Amanda in that limitation.
To quote a great man/duck…
“Of course you know, this means WAR!”
The sheer irony of this page is about to make 2022 me’s head explode! 😀